This thread has me wanting a big slice of Birthday cake. My birthday isn't until next month but what the hey, I'm getting it. I'll be careful not to conjure up any demonic spirits while I eat it.
Birthday celebrations and customs - Are they for Christians?
by AlmostAtheist 173 Replies latest jw friends
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sweetscholar
either you, Little Toe, do not read carefully, or don't believe (cuz of not wanting to believe) what you've red. I did not "undermine" anything, because I stated and PROVED that there is solid undeniable evidence and documentation to show that birthday celebrations UNQUESTIONABLY have pagan demonic baggage and even ROOTS. check these sources:
The History of the Christian Religion and Chruch, During the First Three Centuries (New York, 1848) Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), page 140
"The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general."
"The Imperial Bible Dictionary" (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225
"The...Hebrews looked on the celebratoin of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship (such is never clearly stated by Hebrews of "eye paint",--for AlmostAtheist and Little Toe),
"a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common OBSERVANCES associated with these days.""The Lore of Birthdays" (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pages 8, 18-20
"The Greeks believed that everyone ha da protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea....This notion was CARRIED DOWN ("carried down": can we say "tradition", that makes God's Word void) in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother adn the patron saint...The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks....Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]....Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes....Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune....Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday....Originally the idea was rooted in magic....Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day."
"The World Book Encyclopedia" (Volume 3, page 416)
"The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom."
not my own words, or the words of the WatchTower. there's SO much more documented stuff on it. this is just a sampling. none of which is supposition or conjecture. and it goes way before "Druids" too. Druids also concocted the Halloween demonic nonsense. by the way.
so again, to Little Toe. you don't read all that comprehensively I've noticed. I said clearly and cited things in other postings that DO show hard solid proof of the TRUE pagan demonic origins and roots of birthday celebration customs. such hard proof is really lacking (though AlmostAtheist and silly protestant web sites that he quotes rave) for "eye paint."
I'm not really convinced (yet) that you'll find the same solid proof and documentation per se against "eye paint" and solid evidence of its true actual origin, in the sense of "it was originally invented for witchcraft and warding off evil spirits". you don't really find hard evidence for that. but cakes with candles and "making a wish". well just who is the birthday boy making a wish to anyway? to Jehovah?? to Christ? to the Fairy God Mother? to the Tooth Fairy? to Santa Clause (a pagan goofball right there). to Isis? where is that in the Bible? to go around idolizing and praying before candles in solemn offering? with a cake? to celebrate and glorify a silly vain imperfect human creature? there's wayyyyyyyyyy more solid evidence proving the demonic background of birthdays than with "eye paint". did you get it this time, Mr Little Toe?? did you read it this time? so no. you do what you've done similarly with your other cockeyed postings and rationalizations and silly desperate emotionalisms. you don't read carefully and use lame-brain comparisons to justfify yourself and to use as an alibi to sin and do questionable things.
and that's the problem with talking to apostates after a while. about 90% of the time it's just a fruitless venture. they are stubborn and hardened and worldly and rebellious and "Korah-like" (Numbers 16; Jude 11,12)
again to reiterate. BD celebrations are not quite as bad as rape or murder. no kidding. I never said or implied that they were. I say, and history and archeology and the Bible indicate, that it's QUESTIONABLE AND NOT TO BE RECOMMENDED for the truly separated and sanctified and Bible following God serving Christian. atheists, nominal "Christians", agnostics, humanists, secularists, hypocrites, and just general worldly fools will not really care much about "works and customs of darkness, paganism, demonism, or bonehead vanity." but JWs are not those things. they are true Bible-believing Bible-following (though obviously not perfect every minute) separated NOT-of-this-pagan-corrupt-world sanctified Christians and pure witnesses of the Lord Almighty. though that "they ate fruit" guy rave. though Little Toe rave. all in a pathetic attempt to justify their paganism, corruption, worldiness, and human nature heart is treacherous emotionalism. "there exists a way that seems right to a man; but the ways of death are the end of it afterward. (Proverbs 14:12)
I hope that's clear enough. even for those with a lot of paste smeared on their eyes. (see Isaiah 6:10; Matthew 13:14,15; and "dull in your hearing" Hebrews 5:11)
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sweetscholar
Dec 13, 2005 Post 83 of 83
since 20-Nov-05either you, Little Toe, do not read carefully, or don't believe (cuz of not wanting to believe) what you've red. I did not "undermine" anything, because I stated and PROVED that there is solid undeniable evidence and documentation to show that birthday celebrations UNQUESTIONABLY have pagan demonic baggage and even ROOTS. check these sources: The History of the Christian Religion and Chruch, During the First Three Centuries (New York, 1848) Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), page 140 "The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general." "The Imperial Bible Dictionary" (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225 "The...Hebrews looked on the celebratoin of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship (such is never clearly stated by Hebrews of "eye paint",--for AlmostAtheist and Little Toe),
"a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common OBSERVANCES associated with these days." "The Lore of Birthdays" (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pages 8, 18-20 "The Greeks believed that everyone ha da protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea....This notion was CARRIED DOWN ("carried down": can we say "tradition", that makes God's Word void) in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother adn the patron saint...The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks....Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]....Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes....Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune....Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday....Originally the idea was rooted in magic....Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day." "The World Book Encyclopedia" (Volume 3, page 416) "The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom." not my own words, or the words of the WatchTower. there's SO much more documented stuff on it. this is just a sampling. none of which is supposition or conjecture. and it goes way before "Druids" too. Druids also concocted the Halloween demonic nonsense. by the way. so again, to Little Toe. you don't read all that comprehensively I've noticed. I said clearly and cited things in other postings that DO show hard solid proof of the TRUE pagan demonic origins and roots of birthday celebration customs. such hard proof is really lacking (though AlmostAtheist and silly protestant web sites that he quotes rave) for "eye paint."I'm not really convinced (yet) that you'll find the same solid proof and documentation per se against "eye paint" and solid evidence of its true actual origin, in the sense of "it was originally invented for witchcraft and warding off evil spirits". you don't really find hard evidence for that. but cakes with candles and "making a wish". well just who is the birthday boy making a wish to anyway? to Jehovah?? to Christ? to the Fairy God Mother? to the Tooth Fairy? to Santa Clause (a pagan goofball right there). to Isis? where is that in the Bible? to go around idolizing and praying before candles in solemn offering? with a cake? to celebrate and glorify a silly vain imperfect human creature? there's wayyyyyyyyyy more solid evidence proving the demonic background of birthdays than with "eye paint". did you get it this time, Mr Little Toe?? did you read it this time? so no. you do what you've done similarly with your other cockeyed postings and rationalizations and silly desperate emotionalisms. you don't read carefully and use lame-brain comparisons to justfify yourself and to use as an alibi to sin and do questionable things.
and that's the problem with talking to apostates after a while. about 90% of the time it's just a fruitless venture. they are stubborn and hardened and worldly and rebellious and "Korah-like" (Numbers 16; Jude 11,12)
again to reiterate. BD celebrations are not quite as bad as rape or murder. no kidding. I never said or implied that they were. I say, and history and archeology and the Bible indicate, that it's QUESTIONABLE AND NOT TO BE RECOMMENDED for the truly separated and sanctified and Bible following God serving Christian. atheists, nominal "Christians", agnostics, humanists, secularists, hypocrites, and just general worldly fools will not really care much about "works and customs of darkness, paganism, demonism, or bonehead vanity." but JWs are not those things. they are true Bible-believing Bible-following (though obviously not perfect every minute) separated NOT-of-this-pagan-corrupt-world sanctified Christians and pure witnesses of the Lord Almighty. though that "they ate fruit" guy rave. though Little Toe rave. all in a pathetic attempt to justify their paganism, corruption, worldiness, and human nature heart is treacherous emotionalism. "there exists a way that seems right to a man; but the ways of death are the end of it afterward. (Proverbs 14:12)
(also, to AlmostAtheist, make sure to check my other postings today, that are on the previous page, if you haven't already done so.) I hope that's clear enough. even for those with a lot of paste smeared on their eyes. (see Isaiah 6:10; Matthew 13:14,15; and "dull in your hearing" Hebrews 5:11)
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jgnat
even for those with a lot of paste smeared on their eyes.
Ironic.
I'm new to this thread, "sweetscholar" have you covered yet, why "pagan origins" equates to "pagan" in our day?
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LittleToe
You're completely unreadable. Are you having a breakdown? I work in Mental Health services and would genuinely and sympathetically advise that you see a doctor. Seriously...
I did not "undermine" anything, because I stated and PROVED that there is solid undeniable evidence and documentation to show that birthday celebrations UNQUESTIONABLY have pagan demonic baggage and even ROOTS.
Sorry, but it's not "unquestionable" at all. I'm questioning it. The only thing you seem to have to argue with is that some greek guys are recorded as having candles on cakes. Is that the sum totallity of your idea of a Birthday celebration?
Further, just because some greek guy thought it was a nice idea and his "goddess" might like a pretty candle, why does that make it demonic? Why doesn't it merely make it humanistic with a dash of anthropomorphization?
You really do come over as totally extreme, ya know? Meanwhile, why not try using the "Enter" key between parragraphs (on the far bottom right of your keyboard), instead of lots of spaces? Presentation make a big difference regarding impression
In Christian love,
Ross. -
LittleToe
Oh, and by the way, I'll be judged of no man (1Cor.2:15, and context)!
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DanTheMan
sweetscholar, i noticed you haven't addressed my previous post. Nobody I know of that celebrates birthdays makes any connection in their mind to the worship of Druid gods or whatever when they blow out the candles. Given the stance the WTS has taken on pinatas, that what's important is how a custom is viewed now, not 1000 years or however long ago, why wouldn't that same reasoning apply to a birthday celebration?
And I'm kind of disappointed at the bitter rant about Apostates™. If your religion is true, then God is going to kill us all real soon now, so why be mad at us?
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sweetscholar
after this I will not address anything you say, Little Toe, cuz you're obviously unreasonable. (never mind "unreadable") what was so "unreadable"? I even made the letters bigger for a blind bat like you to be able to read better.
you wanna use "ad hominems" and retarded sarcastic blatant insults on me? well ok. I don't want to stoop to your dopey level. but I'll do a Stephen on you in this posting, you deranged idiot. I'll make an exception this time. cuz you're obviously hopeless. (and to everyone else reading this, I'm usually not quite this way. so take it with a grain of salt.)
you say "some greek guy"? wow, what a careful scholar and reader you are.
ok, the gloves come off and this is addressed only to YOU here, not anyone else. YOU'RE A COCKEYED NUT THAT DOESN'T HAVE THE SENSE GOD GAVE A BRASS MONKEY.
I cited and quoted a number of things that had nothing to do, you nit wit, with "some greek guy." that's why you're a blockhead who can't grasp simple English. I suggest you go back to high school and take remedial English, cuz you can't read very well.
did you really read everything in that last posting???? I mean for real? everything? carefully?? what is the "mental issue" cuz I simply answered and thoroughly outlined the HARD CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE THAT YOU "QUESTION" WHICH IS NOT TO BE EVEN REMOTELY COMPARED TO THE FLIMSY CONJECTURE WITH "EYE PAINT"??
what was so hard about that or so "mental breakdown"?? I can easily say that you're the one with the serious brain issues, cuz all you've done with me is be rude and derisive and dismissive and cockey and arrogant. if you read all my postings from the beginning on this thread, I was basically cordial yet straightforward. in THIS posting, I'm just letting you have it. why? cuz you aint just some ignorant ordinary type I just met on the street, but a demonized nut and apostate creep who should KNOW BETTER !!! Stephen called them "snakes and hypocrites". (Acts 7,8) Christ called them 'sons of hell (Gehenna)' and "white-washed graves full of corruption and death" and "sons of Satan", and Paul called them "false apostles" and "ministers of Satan" and so forth. heretics to be cast away. you're in a different category. with your outrageous venom and stupidity and stubbornness, and deliberate lack of comprehension.
you "question it"? question what??? in what sense? how exactly are you 'questioning' it? based on what do you arrogantly schmuckishly rudely idioticalloy "question it"? what leg do you have to "question" the references and hard historical data and archeology on any of this? because you just want to?? duhh.
I did not write
World Book Encyclopedia or The History of the Christian Religion and Chruch, During the First Three Centuries or "The Imperial Bible Dictionary " or "The Lore of Birthdays". and a host of other reputable documented backed- up reference sources on the subject.
what's to honestly "question"? huh, Little Toe? question what per se?? it is what it is. then you tell me, genius. where did the cake, candles, wish-making, and the whole elaborate commemorating and junk stem and originate from? out of nowhere? from your great grandmother? yeah, whatever. you silly blind monkey brain. (Act 7) IT'S NOT JUST "SOME GREEK GUY." I did not say "some greek guy" this that or the other. duhh. why not grow a brain already, or grow some objectivity and some sanity, you apostate dumbbell. (again, I don't normally go off this much, but for a deranged creep like Little Toe, I'll make this first and last exception, on this thread.)
do you even know how to comprehend anything?
you ask dumb arrogant retarded questions. not asked in sincerity. especially since the issue and points and questions was already basically covered:
look at this crap that you wrote:
Further, just because some greek guy thought it was a nice idea and his "goddess" might like a pretty candle, why does that make it demonic? Why doesn't it merely make it humanistic with a dash of anthropomorphization?
AHH, GENIUS, BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS THAT IT'S DEMONIC. "table of demons" said the Bible, not JWs or me. (1 Corinthians 10:20,21) and what was that in context of? mixing the true and the false and what the what? NATIONS sacrifice and commemorate.
"The things that THE NATIONS (people in general throughout the silly world) sacrifice they sacrifice to DEMONS (Little Brain, did you get that? did you read that? is the elmer's glue still smeared all over your cataracts?) AND NOT TO GOD. and I do not want you to become sharers with the DEMONS."
(see also Deuteronomy 32:17; also
Psalm 106:35,36:
"and they went mingling with the NATIONS,
and took up learning THEIR WORKS.
And they kept serving their IDOLS,
and these came to be a SNARE TO THEM."
(Psalm 106:35,36)
again, Einstein, the BIBLE says it's demonic and idolatrous, if witchcraft and mystical superstitious and magical customs are there. that pagan NATIONS came up with. again, for a stubborn apostate schmuck like you, NO AMOUNT OF BIBLICAL REFERENCES, PASSAGES, PRINCIPLES, AND SOLID HISTORICAL DATA will convince the heretical and emotional and stubborn.
The Bible also says that "stubbornness is as the sin of witchcraft and rebelliousness (or Korah-like apostasy) is as necromancy or the use of uncanny power", (1 Samuel 15:23) so guess what that makes you.
also. spaces or paragraphs whatever. pick at that too. whatever. it is what it is.
World Book Encyclopedia is not "some greek guy." get new glasses or something. or better yet get a new brain. or even better yet. get a new heart. your present heart is so wicked and desperate and foolish and apostate and corrupt, no cardiologist could save it. you need a whole new heart transplant. that only the Lord could provide. but, too bad, your worldly rebellious unreasonable crap prevents you from any of that. and the same is true for about 90% of the characters that visit this website.
again, one more time to the slow Little Toe Brains. IT'S NOT JUST SOME LITTLE GREEK GUY SAID. read all the references a bit more carefully. and they aint just "some greek guy". and they're only a sampling of the proof out there. that outstrips any supposed conjectures about "eye paint" with supposed actual witchcraft ties. again, this is most likely my last addressing to you. I'll still dialogue with Almost Atheist, although he too is "almost gone" in my book also. but I'd much rather deal with him, cuz at least he's cordial and civil and can read 5th grade English much better. so if you do perchance get addressed by me ("if) it would only be indirectly, with a posting directed to Almost Atheist or maybe somebody else. good day.
(ps. sorry if I was way too blunt with mr toe man. and may God forgive me if my "name-calling" was too strong or over the top. but rather than whining about my "tone" or "name-calling" in this posting, try understanding and addressing and seeing the actual points made here. and don't overlook the FACT that I've been extremely cordial and patient and polite throughout most of this thread, in my postings before. but I'm only human. and I had enough of Little Toe Face and of his lame sarcastic non-scholastic non-intelligent emotional insane non-comprehensive remarks and jabs and sillinness. I'm only imperfect human. but again, remember too, to balance it out, that Paul, Stephen, Elijah, Moses, and Christ called them names too. very strong cutting insulting blunt things. cuz the people they told off were just too far gone also. And those Servants of Jehovah had enough of them and their crap. (READ: Acts 7; Matthew 23; John 8; 2 Corinthians 11; 1 Kings 18; Deuteronomy 9 to see what names they called apostates and heretics and corrupt arrogant unrepentant pagans.)
POST POST SCRIPT. again, one last time, to repeat to a guy who apparently needs it to sink in, though it probably still won't. IT'S NOT JUST SOME LITTLE GREEK GUY SAID. read all the references a bit more carefully. and they aint just "some greek guy". and they're only a sampling of the proof out there. that outstrips any supposed conjectures about "eye paint" with supposed actual witchcraft ties.)
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jeanniebeanz
Dying laughing here... Sorry... Moving on now...
Jean
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Super_Becka
jgnat said:
I'm new to this thread, "sweetscholar" have you covered yet, why "pagan origins" equates to "pagan" in our day?
and then DanTheMan said:
Given the stance the WTS has taken on pinatas, that what's important is how a custom is viewed now, not 1000 years or however long ago, why wouldn't that same reasoning apply to a birthday celebration?
Hmm, I posted on this thread a while back, but nobody paid any attention to my posts, not surprisingly, hey, I'm just a mere newbie, so I figured I'd post again to support a couple of fellow posters.
When I read jgnat and DanTheMan's posts, I see a very clear question that our friend sweetscholar doesn't seem to want to answer. Maybe it hasn't been stated as clearly as this until now, or maybe it has, I haven't read every single post on this thread, but the question is one that keeps coming up, especially with the recurring mention of eye makeup and pagan origins.
So I'm gonna ask again - just because it was once pagan, what makes it pagan now?? OK, so a few pre-Christians worshipped pagan gods, yeah, that was bound to happen before Christianity reached them, humans have been worshipping gods for centuries - look at the ancient Egyptians and Greeks. And you know, some of the things they did as part of their worship still exist today. Like cats - ancient Egyptians revered cats and worshipped them. The WTS's linear reasoning would say that therefore, cats are pagan and shouldn't be kept as pets. The same goes for pinatas - it has pre-Christian, pagan origins, and according to the WTS, that's a very bad thing, right?? Then why aren't cats and pinatas unequivocably banned?? Because once upon a time, they were both pagan practices, but today, they have lost all of their pagan meanings. When someone smashes a pinata, nobody is thinking about anything religious, they're thinking, "YES, I finally smashed the pinata!!". And you know, some people just like having cats for pets - ask my JW boyfriend and his parents, between them, they have three cats and believe me, these cats are so spoiled, they could be mistaken for gods.
And as a 20-year-old who has had and attended many birthday parties, I have yet to see one child worship anything or anyone when they blow out the candles on a birthday cake, much less some Druids or pagan gods or whatever. Ask a little kid why he has a birthday party and he'll probably say that he likes cake and party hats, simple as that. No underlying pagan rituals here.
Just because something used to be pagan doesn't mean that it still is, things lose their meaning all the time. Windchimes is another example, they were once used to ward off evil spirits, but now, people just use them as a decoration because they're pretty and they sound nice. And I won't even get into Christmas, that's a whole other can of worms that belongs on another thread. The key is, meanings change and what was once pagan can be part of a Christian life because the original pagan meanings have disappeared.
Birthdays, just like pinatas, are just customs in Western society. They've lost any and all pagan meanings. So why are they still banned when other things that are so clearly descended from pagan rituals, like the pinata, are in the clear according to the WTS??
Thanks.
-Becka :)