HOW THE WTBS CONTINUES TO MISS THE POINT!

by JUSTAMOM 35 Replies latest jw friends

AGuest

Ah, dear Naeblis... such anger, such animosity, such chagrin at the Holy One of Israel. You have put YOUR 'faith'... in the 'false stylus' of the copyists, those who painted my Father as a great 'exactor', when in fact, He is a great 'protector'. You have chosen to read what suits you... as it suits you... rather than 'hear' what is TRUTH: never has an act of vengeance been taken by my Father... without provocation. Indeed, babies were included, but my Father KNOWS the 'inclination of man'... even from the womb.
Those very ones YOU feel were done a wrong turn... might have probably grown up to be Hitlers and Idi Amins. Do YOU know? No... you don't. Do I? No. Does my Father? Again, we'll just have to wait and see, yes?
You are basing your position on 'circumstantial evidence'... on what has been written... by 'earthling man'... in whom you were TOLD... not to put your 'trust'. I ask you, then, why not grant my Father they same 'fair trial' as you would wish for yourself and YOUR loved ones? Call your witnesses, then, Naeblis. But make CERTAIN that you grant witnesses for my Father... and thus, my Lord... the SAME 'time' on your witness stand. For indeed, a 'fair' trial is a 'fair' trial... isn't it?
Or perhaps YOU are among those who would bring a 'false' witness, based on what you THINK you know... rather than what is TRUE. But how will we EVER know? Simply... we will have to wait and see, yes? To that time when ALL 'witnesses' can be called? It will come soon enough, dear one. The 'judgment' will come soon enough. Were I you, though... I wouldn't be so QUICK... to rush it.
My peace remains... still.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Naeblis

Give me a break. Do you deny God killed countless babies during the flood? Would ALL of them ahve become Hitler's?? Your reasoning is breathtakingly faulty. I have not chosen to ignore the loving acts of god in the bible. But I have not chosen to ignore the barbaric ones as well. This to me is one of the reasons why I believe that the bible is simply a man made book. A hodge podge of holy writings thrown together to illustrate the Church's at the time understanding of theology. You say that we are "free will" agents and then you say that god killed the babies because they may have become evil?? How ludicrous!!! It's free will but he'll kill you in ADVANCE for your wrong decisions? You are a ridiculous lady Shelby.
ozziepost

nytelecom1,
G'day again. I should like to pivk up on this point of yours as it seems to remain unanswered:
The org will say that this has precedent in the Greek Scriptures.
Would you like to show us where?
To the extent that it is practiced JW's will point to the Hebrew Scriptures.
I don't follow the reasoning here and would appreciate it if you would expand on this point, for as it stands you seem to have contradicted your own argument.
May I add that you are taking the role of a Watchtower apologist and you need to look instead at what your own reasoning and common sense tells you about what God's Word says i.e. don't repeat what someone else has said is correct. What do YOU think?
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Evil is the absence of empathy"
Movie (2000), Nuremberg
AGuest

The 'thing' is... dear Naeblis (and of course, may you have peace)... that the Father that I have come to know... and come to be known BY... is a God of loving kindness... AS WELL AS a God of 'acts of VENGEANCE'. Tell you what: let's take a look at that word 'vengeance', shall we?
According to Merriam-Webster:
"punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense"
Hmmmm... in 'retaliation'. That would IMPLY that some other 'act' occurred first, yes? At least, it does to ME. What say you?
Okay, according to Cambridge International:
"the punishing of someone for harming you or your friends or family, or the desire for such punishment to happen"
Hmmmm... someone being punished for harming me or my friends or family. Heck, that happens in THIS 'system of things' every day. Yes? WE... earthling man... do it all the time. Yes? And can 'justify' as we need to. Yes?
Random House: "punishment inflicted as a revenge; retribution."
Oxford: "punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong."
Well, now. Vengeance APPEARS to be... well, 'payback'. Yes? Okay, now we know what 'vengeance' IS. Do we know who can EXACT vengeance... who is the one with that RIGHT? Let's take a look see, shall we? Nooo... YOU look them up:
Deut. 32:35
Isaiah 34:8
Isaiah 61:2
2 Thessalonians 1:8
Deuteronomy 32:41
Jeremiah 50:28
Nahum 1:2
Psalm 99:8
Hebrews 10:30, 31
Okay, NOW let's examine the phrase 'God-given right'. Ever heard that one, Naeb? Sure you have. Folks like us 'invoke' such rights all the time. Now, since you sort of profess a BELIEF in God yet still ("I have not chosen to ignore the loving acts of god in the bible"...), let's look at that phrase with regard to Israel... as well as those who supposedly 'belong' to God and Christ in general. In other words, do WE have the 'God-given right' to exact vengeance? Nope, sorry... you're gonna have to look these up, too.
Leviticus 19:18
Romans 12:19
Things that make you go... hmmmm...
Know what I find SO 'peculiar', though, Naeb, with folks like you?(Actually, I find it 'amusing') Is that you BELIEVE the acts of vengeance, so as to have an animosity toward my Father... and yet, you have NO fear with regard 'checking His hand'! I mean, IF, dear one, my Father is such an 'exacting' God, such a 'forceful' and 'unforgiving' God... such a hateful, angry, malicious God... what in the WORLD makes YOU think YOU... with your puny mere exhalation of an existence... are going to be OVERLOOKED in the day of His 'vengeance' when YOU... have, in essence... mocked and called down evil upon Him? What makes YOU think you will 'get away'... with checking His hand?
Methinks you need to 'figure out' just what it is that you BELIEVE, Naeb, dear. 'Cause if He DOESN'T exist... or if He DOESN'T
'exact vengeance'... then your anger... is moot. But if He DOES... then your HEART... is eventually going to cause your MOUTH... to sin against Him. And indeed, if He IS a God of 'acts of vengeance', SURELY... you don't want to 'fall into His hands' for the sins of YOUR mouth. Do you?
My advice to you? As someone here so succinctly puts in their "motto" line... 'get in, sit down, shut up... and hold on.' In other words, wait and SEE. Wait and SEE if there is a justification... and explanation. If so, then you are out of line. If not, then... well, 'call' Him on it. But do it like a MAN... face to face.
Oh, and with regard to the babies, the word of my Lord to YOU, Naeblis, is that do YOU know the 'inclination of man'... from the womb? Do YOU know what he will turn out to be? Do YOU know who is conceived TODAY... that will grow up and persecute the 'seed', the 'sons' of God... the CHRIST... TOMORROW? The word of my Lord to YOU, O Naeblis, is that no... you don't.
Take a warning, Naeblis... out of the HEART'S abundance... the MOUTH... speaks. Check your 'heart', dear one. For it SEEMS that you are 'in want' of some [heart].
My peace... remains still.
YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Escargot

Brother Ray Franz sure addressed the JW misuse of Disfellowshipping in his second book, stating That Paul said the rebuke of the “majority” is sufficient, he says nothing about disfellowshipping the “minority” who choose not to rebuke the wrongdoer.
Also, disfellowshipping occurred to persons who “are” fornicators, who “are” drunkards, not persons who “at one time” were these things.
Also, the whole congregation was involved in the issue, not some elders in a back room, in secret.
Elders are given the authority to serve, not dictate to or rule over.
Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
ozziepost

Just bringing this back to yop for nytelecom1. Waiting.........
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Evil is the absence of empathy"
Movie (2000), Nuremberg
nytelecom1

gday ozzie,
JW's use the scriptures found in 1 Corinthians 5: 5,9-11
2 John 8-11, 2 Peter 2 21-22,
as a basis for disfellowshipping.
As I stated earlier, it was a practice in Israel to remove those,
be it with death or from the city, those practioners of badness.
It should then come as no surprise that this practice was carried
over to the Christian congergation. As I stated earlier, we know
that we are not under the law anymore. God would likely want to keep his congergation clean as he tried with the nation of Israel
Free2Bme

A Guest,
Please get off your soap box for a second. You sound a lot like a Catholic priest trying to strike fear of God into his congregation with threats of hell and damnation.
What is your point? We have no rights to avenge? So?
God has the right to avenge? Fair enough.
So we should tremble with fear because God is going to take revenge or as you put it 'fall into His hands for the sins of your mouth'.Well if you are right about your concept of God (what a cheery one that is!) perhaps we will die...but only once. For us the struggle to please the angry God of the bible as you see Him will be over. Yours' as a righteous God-fearing person will continue FOREVER. Test after test after test. I pray for you DEAR ONE that you will never stumble from your exalted position.
Naeblis made a valid point. Where is the justice in destroying a baby that has never had the chance to exercise free will? Your argument does not hold up.
It is precisely your condescending attitude that drives people away from God. What sort of message do you think you portray with your vengeance 'God's gonna get you ' sermon?
Where is the love?
Free
AGuest

Here this, O nytelecom... and tell me if you get the sense of it:
"That which is saving YOU, namely BAPTISM...
NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh...
BUT... the REQUEST TO GOD FOR A CLEAN CONSCIOUS."
Do you hear and get the sense of that, dear one? No, my Lord says that you do not, and that I am to 'enlighten' you, by means of his voice... and his spirit.
Therefore, hear... and get the sense... of THIS:
It is NOT water baptism that 'saves' you, for although water can 'wash' the flesh... it CANNOT cleanse it of its sin. There is, instead, ANOTHER 'bath'... that cleanses you... and saves you. It is NOT the 'bath' of water, for purposes of the sins of the flesh... it is the 'bath' of 'living water'... HOLY SPIRIT... for purposes of cleansing... THE SPIRIT. It is the baptism... by FIRE AND SPIRIT. John... baptized with water; my Lord, however, BAPTIZES WITH SPIRIT. You and your associates, however, do not PERMIT all to be 'baptized' with such spirit, and by your prohibition, you in essence... SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS... before men!
Hear this, then, O nytelecom, and get the sense of it:
"Cleanse the INSIDE of the cup..."
You and your associates run around trying to get people to become clean... in the flesh. Okay, so you don't smoke, you don't do drugs, you don't commit fornication, you don't do this or that. Indeed, your flesh 'is without sin'. Is it? For yet, you HATE, you DIVIDE, you SLANDER, you REASON WICKEDLY, and you IMPALE THE CHRIST AFRESH by attempting to put BACK under law... those he has RELEASED. And you do much more.
Have you not heard and did you not read, that it is not what goes IN a man that defiles a man, but it is what comes OUT of man that defiles him? Which defiles a man more: smoking? Or hating his own flesh? You can, then, clean up EVERY single aspect of your flesh: you can rid it of ALL sin... and even death. I ask you, though: do angels have in THEIR 'vessels' sin and death, such that their 'vessels'... their 'cups'... their spirit bodies... DIE?
No, dear one. Their outer garments... their 'flesh'... their 'vessels'... which are SPIRITUAL... are 'clean'. They house no illness, no sickness, no corruption, no death. That is why THEY must be destroyed.
Matthew 10:28
It is flesh 'with its blood', dear one... that is the 'unclean' vessel. However, let me ask you... are all angels clean... ON THE INSIDE? Do I need answer?
Again, I say to you just as my Lord has said to those before you: cleanse the INSIDE of the dish, then you can see to clean the OUTSIDE of it. Purify your HEART... and by means of Christ, your FLESH... will be 'counted' as 'clean'.
Again, I pray that you hear, nytelecom... and get the SENSE of it.
Peace to you,
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
AGuest

nytelecom... dear one... peace... again.
As I stated earlier, it was a practice in Israel to remove those, be it with death or from the city, those practioners of badness.
Lord, child... it wasn't a PRACTICE... it was a LAW.
It should then come as no surprise that this practice was carried over to the Christian congergation.
No, no surprise... old habits are hard to break.
As I stated earlier, we know that we are not under the law anymore.
Are YOU sure YOU know that?
God would likely want to keep his congergation clean as he tried with the nation of Israel
My Father tried, dear nytelecom... to keep Israel 'clean'... IN THE FLESH. My Lord, however, has instituted a NEW 'law'... to keep us 'clean'... IN THE SPIRIT.
Hear... and get the SENSE of it. STOP judging, dear one. I beg you. Indeed, let then, the one WITHOUT sin... cast the first stone. Here, my hand is 'out' to you. Take the stone.
Your servant, and a slave of Christ,
SJ

HOW THE WTBS CONTINUES TO MISS THE POINT!

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