by AlmostAtheist 43 Replies latest jw friends
"where else are we to go?"
-
"finding true worship should not be a process of elimination."
I like that one. ONe time when my wife said that to me, I said
"that is not exactly a ringing endorsement"
Fun to say, but lack humility.
Maybe we should break these up into what we should say and what we would LOVE to say.
CYP
I've tried the comparison of the abusive wife complex as well, got no where. He couldn't see how the two could possibly compare as the wt is not abusive.
Try another angle, psychologically speaking, meaning the feeling that being 'without' the person, or org is worse than remaining in an abusive relationship or from an org that is dishonest in some way or has the real potential to hurt you in some way, life saving procedures, spiritual abuses, shunning, etc... They cannot, willnot see anything until they themselves are either burned in some way or have their own crisis of conscience. Or unless they pluck up the courage to discover why everybody keeps bashing (in their mind) the wt and want to see for themselves or become an apologetic for the org.
AA,
I know many sincere and devout jdubs who wonder “WHERE to go.” I did so myself. To make things worse, many of them even think that that Jah’s Chosen can be rotten to the core – just like ancient Isreal once was.
What they don’t realize, is that the “concept” was flawed from the start. Bible Student/JW have become “apostate” after discovering this from the word go. We are all in different stages, and let’s be honest, there is no answer to this question: there is nowhere else to turn to for the kind of “truth” and ready answers to everything. It is like somebody losing his/her partner in death after a long marriage. Of course you couldn’t just say to the bereaved spouse: Listen now, what are you complaining about. There are lots of gorgeous man/woman out there – use your eyes and just look!
I think the KEY is to start first with breaking the spell of this false “concept” that has been hardwired into the brain – of which they were captives: the “concept” that they were SOMEWHERE to start with in the first place.
IMO the KEY is disproving the 607BCE/1914 myth, together with a brief historical analysis of the 1918/1919 events. If you can prove that the “concept” of the FD&S claim is totally groundless, you can consequently move on to the obvious reality that such FD&S is to be found nowhere else – presto: the FD&S interpretation and organization “concept” is false! It did the trick for me in no time: I was ready for as well.
Don’t forget that some jdubs (except for the abusive-wife syndrome sufferers of course) might even find the prospect of having the concrete proof of this faulty “concept” somewhat appealing – they are probably not even aware of the possibility of such concrete proof – proof that would provide them with freedom of their predicament.
I myself, like many others I guess, already despised and loathed almost everything about the bOrg. I just thought that it was God’s way of testing us.
Even after this there is still the process of bereavement (not for me – feels great), and from what I’ve been reading on this board, many indeed keep looking for the real deal for a while.
Also, IMO, you cannot just “tell” anybody these things. It must be planted in someone’s mind. You have to “sell” the idea by painting an appealing picture of freedom of conscience in somebody’s mind. Just like the WTS took the time to groom, love bomb, and initiate us into becoming the exclusive members of the paradise club. Just think of it as a “bible study.” Once they get it, the sky is the limit. Some even become atheists.
Sorry about rambling on .
Theo
Sometimes it isn't so much WHAT you say, but when and how you say it.
I have found the most damage I have done to the cult mindset is when I am almost apologetic for my statement.
Also the dub goes through natural eb and flow. WHen they are regularly spending countless hours out in service, or studying ALL of the pubs, and taking notes, and .... they are flowing.
Wait for them to get tired. Wait for them to tell you about the things that bother them. If they trust you, they will. A glass of wine helps get them out of dub mode also. Or even just talking while doing normal things like shopping. (plus they can't scream and yell in public)
You can come up with the greatest zinger in the world. If their defenses are up you might as well just scream at a rock.
CYP
the whole idea of having to be part of a god group is so eerie. how bout just being in a relationship with god, just you him, intimate, bible or spiritual guide of your choice to read and meditate on.
isn't group prayer and worship a little like group sex. i mean, very much less intimate and meaningful in the end, right?
Another logical fallacy in the JW reasoning. They assume that since they have nowhere else to go, that they should stay where they are. But the two are not dependent on one another. If you recognize something is wrong, you don't have to have an alternative belief already set in place before you disown the incorrect one. This is an intrinsic part of the JW "all or nothing" reasoning.
IME, if you can get them away from the emotional question and try to get them thinking analytically, there might be some chance of a "eureka" moment. Unfortunately, by the time they ask the "where will we go?" question, they are already overcome by their confusion and emotions.
I have, at times, wondered if you told a JW who was starting to see what is wrong: "You don't have to go away from the JWs, you just need to be aware so you can make a good decision. Once you have enough information, you'll know what to do." I wonder if that would give them permission to investigate, while easing the fear of leaving?
I would try and show them the double standards that the Organization has. For example, the quote below from the 2003 WT magazine. I've taken the liberty of reversing it. How can a Witness think it's terrible when the Catholic Church changes it's teaches, but is "thrilled" with the "new light" when the WTS does the exact same thing?
***
w03 5/1 p. 4 How Some Received Answers ***A schoolteacher in Portugal who had been educated by nuns and priests sincerely practiced her faith. When the church changed and abandoned practices that she had been taught were important, she became confused. Travel acquainted her with Oriental ways of worship, and she began to wonder whether there is one true God. How should she worship? When she asked her priest about things in the Bible, her questions were brushed aside, and she was disappointed.
The Catholic church had circulated a pamphlet in this schoolteacher’s city warning parishioners not to converse with Jehovah’s Witnesses. But her questions persisted. One day when the Witnesses called at her door, she listened and showed interest in what she heard. It was the first time she had talked with them.
Revised version:
A schoolteacher in Portugal who had been educated by Jehovah's Witnesses sincerely practiced her faith. When the Watchtower Society changed and abandoned practices that she had been taught were important, she became confused. Travel acquainted her with Oriental ways of worship, and she began to wonder whether there is one true God. How should she worship? When she asked her local elders about things in the Bible, her questions were brushed aside, and she was disappointed.
The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society had circulated several magazines in this schoolteacher’s city warning their Rank and File members not to converse with other religions. But her questions persisted. One day when the Mormons called at her door, she listened and showed interest in what she heard. It was the first time she had talked with them.
That is a common question, but not worth answering. While they ask that question they are not ready to move on. I try to explain that the answer will become obvious over time.
I start with the question "Do you want to know truth?" Yes, then lets look at the truthfulness of JW beliefs. Once they see the dishonesty of being a JW some don't want to be part of it anymore, regardless of whether there is somewhere else to go.
The ones that want to remain regardless are better off in it. If someone needs to belong to a high control group they are likely to go from this one to another one anyway.
That's a question I considered when I first started having doubts. Having been a jw for so long, I couldn't visualize doing anything else, certainly not joining another religion. I think it was because I was so used to allowing the org to do my thinking for me, and I had the certainty of more or less knowing what each day would bring, it was a bit scary to leave all that behind and contemplate going out into the world again. I had to convince myself that there could be something beyond the wts, and I think most jws are the same, especially those who have been in a long time. There's nothing you can say that would convince them there is life beyond the org, they have to convince themselves.
Now I'm out, I can't s really understand what I ever saw in it all, just gullible I suppose.
Linda
When two people asked that of me, I wish I'd known at the time that the correct answer was 'everywhere'. I've discovered so many 'organisations' that make me feel like a part of something (new friends, exploring new beliefs, volunteering, sports clubs...) since leaving theirs, that it's hard to know where to start, if they think they need direction.
Sorry, hasn't answered your question though. I like the pink unicorn thing.
