by AlmostAtheist 43 Replies latest jw friends
Where else could I go?
um, how about Hell? (as i flip them off and slap my ass) ha ha, lol, j/k....
seriously though, i have been asked this question by a few JWs, and i always say the same thing: "i figured it out on my own. i am not going to do it for you." you know? i am not an evangelist anymore, so i am not out to save people. when i first left the org i wanted to help get others out. and i admit it is a noble cause. i just don't have much interest in it anymore. even for my family.
TS
Tetra, do you believe in being a part of anything greater than yourself?
I agree with jwfacts. If they ask you that question, they may not be ready to take the step of questioning the FDS. I think of leaving the organization as a series of steps, first of which is to simply become aware that all may not be as it should within the org. The second step may be finding the courage to voice those doubts aloud to someone. Some may never go even this far, preferring to go along with the majority and suffer in silence. Others may leave the org but remain Christian, some may question whether the Bible really is the word of God, some may take it a step further and re-examine whether they believe in God at all. It is a progressive journey and everyone will make it at their own pace, some will make it halfway and others will never make it at all. The journey is a personal one and has very little to do with what you say to them but more to do with their readiness to listen and change.
Personally, I am still in the org but have expressed my doubts and concerns to my MS husband. He agreed with me that there were many things that were wrong and asked me if I wasn't a witness, where would I go? My response was "I can go wherever I choose. Or for that matter, why do I have to go anywhere at all? Why can't I just stay where I am, enjoy my work, take care of my family, choose to help others as I have the time and opportunity, express my sincere opinions freely and decide for myself how I will spend my time? Needless to say, he had no answer for that kind of simple common sense and has since pretty much left me to my own counsel. I have even on occassion caught him parroting some of my observations of the problems within the org as if they were his own. So, I'm planting my own seeds. Who knows how far they will grow?
I know several who asked me "Where else do we have to go?".
I think the question is wrong in itself. There does not have to be a place or group where you have to belong to or where your destination is.
If they really think like that, they probably it is better for them to stay where they are. But I'll always add to them that whereever you go, it does not change reality.
Tetra, do you believe in being a part of anything greater than yourself?
no. he he, i am the greatest.... ;) but really though. i can't think of anything. and i like to think i have a pretty good imagination. ts
is it possible to explain that Stephen had a nice quite chat with Jesus just before he snuffed it, so what's good for the goose should be good for the gander?
I tried this out on one of my exdubbuddy FS Overseer elders. His answer, "That is the only verse in the whole Bible where anyone ever spoke to Jesus after He went back to heaven so just what does this prove?"
It's hard to get a closed mind open.
"That is the only verse in the whole Bible where anyone ever spoke to Jesus after He went back to heaven so just what does this prove?"
It's hard to imagine a JW arguing that your point has too few scriptures backing it up, when you consider how willing they are to turn their whole belief system on a single verse hither and yon.
Interestingly, a JW I was batting things around with used the exact same reasoning when I showed him a verse that counters the "everyone must shun" doctrine. His response was that I only had that one verse, and he had several that talk about shunning.
So interpretation is a democratic process? ;-)
Dave
The only scripture that shows Jesus talking to someone after he went back to heaven?!
(Acts 9:3-6) 3
Now as he was traveling he approached Damascus, when suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" 5 He said: "Who are you, Lord?" He said: "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 Nevertheless, rise and enter into the city, and what you must do will be told you."
Doesn't the Bible sow that Jesus talked to Saul/Paul after he went to heaven?
Hmmmm?
Blondie
Assume you're talking to a faithful, indoctrinated JW that is only now getting some doubts rolling in his head. Let's say that he doesn't have much info yet, hasn't done much research, and is pretty scared of anything that smells "apostate". But he can't help but notice how things within the congregation don't seem quite right.He says, "I feel like the apostles. They might have felt like something wasn't quite right -- all this eating flesh/drinking blood stuff -- but they knew they were associated with the right guy. Where else could I go?" He's asking in an almost rhetorical way, since he assumes there is no answer.
What would you say to him?
Have you ever seen a bum on the street swigging down cough medicine for the alcohol content?
That is a JW in spades.
The addiction, finally, doesn't care anymore what it takes to get that fragile warmth coursing through the body for that fleeting relief from the cold.
A bum will beg, borrow or steal enough nickels and dimes to grab the nastiest and cheapest bottle of booze to chase away that awful, nagging sting of real life closing in on him.
That is what an addiction to religion is all about too.
It is all based on an UNexamined premise. The premise is that you need----others-----to tell you what to do and what not to do because your mind is worthless on its own.
The death of the individual is the birth of the religious slave.
Once you give up the right to think for yourself your rational mind is disabled. You turn your brain over to guru, shaman, priest or elder and let them pour the cheap wine into your quivering soul. But, you can't ever be satisfied.
What a JW fears is what all dependent addicts fear: being cut off from their supplier! The have to score some Godsmack for the high or they lose all sense of identity and purpose. They have given up the right and ability to own their own life and steer their own course. So, they stay in the shackles of their chain gang and heave the heavy hammer of "purpose" until they collapse.
If you can get the human part of a JW to examine their foundational surrender of self you might have a chance to resurrect their humanity and revive their will to think. But, it is like getting a battered wife to break off their dependency and escape the punishment without blaming themselves. Habit and broken thinking wrecks human life.
No matter how many clues the JW has that they are in the grip of a make-believe society of conformist drones who wear sleeve patches that stamp them as "slaves" of Jehovah---they have to close their own eyes to avoid seeing that it is only disgruntled old men pulling the strings as though God himself were the puppeteer.
Free the individual from his self-induced slumber and you awake the thinking man. A thinking man can learn to see what is and what is not reality. The Jehovah conformist calls the lies THE TRUTH and the truth are seen as lies of Satan. But, a thinking man challenges conformity and demands evidence for everything.
The phoney smile of a "brother" or "sister" wears thin soon enough. Endless drudgery palmed off as Jehovah service numbs the soul. Hours stolen from life filling a foldup chair in a Kingdom Hall choke off the fresh air of living and drain the will to experience joy from the soul. It is only the addiction and the fear that brings them back like a stray dog to a trash can where a scrap is found.
"WHERE ELSE ARE WE TO GO?" they may ask?
Answer this:
"Go and find your true self; the one you abandoned by the roadside when the Watchtower wrenched it from you. Find your own meaning and create your own purpose for living that has something to do with real people and true friends.
Spend your time pursuing your humanity and feeling the exhilaration of living apart from the whiplash of delusional taskmasters. Be your own person. Find your nature and discover it. The world doesn't belong to Satan; it belongs to the man who is willing to claim it and nurture it and develop his treasure by the sweat of his brow and the genius of his own ideas.
Abandon hope all who enter the world of self-abasement and servitude and pretense of lofty purpose. Seize the day with the strength of the individual who finds what is god inisde himself as the creator of a life worth living while there is life to be lived and not a souless gambler who abandons the beauty of life on a cheap bet that a New World to come is better than the one that really exists now.
That is what you can answer.
Terry
My response now is much different that my response was after I left which I assume is probably the same for most people...LOL but although I'm not pro-religion (agnostic really), I guess I would suggest the person pray since they would be in that mindset already. If the person doesn't feel right about things, then their gut feeling is telling them something and I would hope that they would consider their gut feeling as an answer to their prayers. Then take a step back and really look at the history of your religion. Take a year off and look at independent scholarly writings about religion in general and where JWs fit into the history of world religions. It's quite surprising since JWs are a modern phenomenon.
We have to admit there are many tangible aspects of JWs that draw people to it and keep them there. It's highly organized and there is a sense of global unity and brotherhood. People feel like they belong to something special, they feel wanted and needed. The publishing operations in NY and in branch offices are very impressive, they are efficient, organized and well-maintained. However are these aspects that define a true religion? When considering the fundamentals of religion and faith, are these aspects important in one's salvation? Does our membership and status in a particular religion define our spirituality and how God views us? Among global religions, corporations and publishers, is the WTBTS the only one that is just as organized and efficient?
The next step is to really consider the Bible. Why is the NWT special? Why are other versions that were used for centuries not good enough? If Jehovah inspired the writings in the Bible (Torah and New Testament) in the first place and directed it's publication and translation throughout history, did he make mistakes in other editions? Who really wrote the verses, what were their objectives and why were some "books" left out? Who really compiled the books of the Bible? And finally, is the Bible meant to be read literally? Why do JWs and other fundamentalist religions base core beliefs on specific verses but don't view other ones as literally? Is it our place to decide which verses support our cause while other verses don't support the overall belief system?
Since I was raised a JW, I had a period where I was a model witness, pioneered, ministerial servant and all that, but I recall times in my adolescence and teenage years where I felt that things were wrong and sometimes I felt detached from everyone else in the congregation. I wished I had the understanding and self-actualization to go with my feelings, but when you're raised a witness, there's a lot of pressure to conform and perform (if you know what I mean).
I cringe when many former JW's leave and immediately become involved in another fundamentalist belief systems. As individuals we really need to take a year or two off from religion and explore, deprogram if you will and learn to enjoy life aside from religion as independent and intelligent creatures. We need space to explore our core belief systems which are enhanced by studying and reading many sources. Take some history and religion course at a college. One publication I found helpful is, "Finding Your Religion: When the Faith You Grew Up With Has Lost Its Meaning" by Scotty McLennan. Very informative and he explores all Eastern and Western religions during his own personal search.
Bottom line (I tend to ramble): independent research and free inquiry and taking the responsibility to really know the history of one's religion. We cannot allow others to dictacte what is right and true, this has to be made from our own determination and we must realize that this is not constant. Our beliefs and outlook changes over time from our individual experiences. (This is different than the infamous "new light" issues that plagues the Society)
Regards,
NYCkid
