WAS JESUS BORN 1/2 BC?

by badboy 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Jesus was born in September,based on the idea JOHN THE BAPTIST was conveided in June.

    Why do they say John the Baptist was conceived in June?

    The idea of a 6-month interval between John's and Jesus' conceptions and births comes from Luke (1:26,36) -- the only Gospel to suggest that they were relatives btw.

    I guess the suggestion might come from another Lukan tip, making John's father a priest of Abijah's class, the eighth one of the twenty-four priestly classes according to Nehemiah 12:4,17; 1 Chronicles 24:10. This would make Zechariah's service time fall in May/June or November/December...

    Of course it is building a lot on one legend among many.

  • badboy
    badboy

    They quote a commentary which says that `ABIJAN DIVISION took place in June and reckoned jesus was conveiced about six months later c. December

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    This rests on the traditional assumption that each class of priests served one week in the temple (so Abijah's comes on the 8th week starting from March/April) -- which also implies they did so twice a year. And there is no clue in Luke afaik to favor some time around the summer solstice rather than the winter solstice.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    This is fascinating stuff for me as well...I have a book by Martin Gorst "AEONS - the search for the beginning of time". He goes into detail of the effort by James Ussher (protestant Irish Bishop) who was an early proponent of 4B.C. Another enthusiast for an early ( earlier than 1 or 2 B.C.) was the famous astronomer Johannes Kepler. Also Scaliger, inventor of the Julian calender.

    It seems scholor Josephus put down an account of the last days of King Herod indicating that the year Herod died he put to death a dissident named Mathias and on that very night there was a spring lunar eclipse.

    Ussher got help scanning the astronomical tables, finding:

    * no eclipse at all in 3 b.c, the only eclipse in 2 b.c. was in summer, January eclipse in 1 b.c., but the only spring eclipse was 13 March 4 b.c.

    So, if you take >0 but <2 as Jesus age at Herod's death, 4-6 b.c. sounds fairly reasonable (provided Josephus and those tables were right...)

    BTW; this Ussher went back in time from there and cooked up the notion that human time began on precisely 6PM in the evening of Saturday 22 October 4004 B.C. He had to decide between THREE Old Testament fairly early manuscripts - a Samaritan, a Hebrew, and a Greek. The age of the ancients in these texts from Genesis added up 1,307 - 1,656 - or 2,242 respectively, so we can suppose that he had to use some "editorial judgement"! He chose the Hebrew text eventually. This was done about 1650 a.d.

    I got two practical points from all this compared to WT chronology:

    * This kind of thing is so uncertain that about all you can point to factually is the astronomical data.

    * Ussher, by all accounts, was at least doing honest research and made a great effort not to use bad translations. Yet, his certainty about the date certainly looks silly now in a.d. 2006!

    James

  • badboy
    badboy

    eXPLAIN ABOUT THIS 1307 ETC BUSINESS

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Explain about the 1307, etc...OK - here maybe I should just paraphrase briefly from the AEONS chapter on the subject:

    1. Ussher becomes obsessive about finding the date of human creation (ADAM). It was approximately 1620 or so.

    2. Ussher finds a literary agent in London named Thomas Davies. He commissions him to find the best existing old testament manuscripts in their original languages.

    3. In 1624 Davies finds for Ussher a partial OT (just the 5 books of Moses) in Samaritan. The following year, he finds another version - this time in Chaldean. He eventually also obtains a Greek and Hebrew version as well.

    4. Ussher now faces two problems:

    a> The chronology of Genesis for the time from creation to the flood is "floating" - i.e. there is no way to pin it to a modern calender (i.e. to the year AD 1) without finding something in secular history which can lock into a matching dated event.

    b> The four biblical manuscripts had different time measurement schemes and dates for the time from the creation to the flood - the Samaritan worked out to 1307 calender years, the Hebrew and Chaldean to 1656 years, and the Greek to 2242. Ussher took the 1656 mainly because there were two references to this number.

    5. Now Ussher works on the floating chronology problem for 24!! years: Finally he makes a discovery in the 2 Kings 25 verse 7:

    "and it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Juday, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that Evil-merodach king of Babylon in the year he began to reign..."

    This was enough to link the OT chronology to the kings of Babylon: 2nd century astronomer Ptolemy linked Nebuchadnezzar to Greek history. The reasoning was that Evil-merodach must have started to reign when Nebuchadnezzar died. Now he could hook up the existing Julian calender to death of Nebuchadnezzar and make it 562 BC. Now he could add up all the prophets and kings, etc. and come up with the famous date 4004 BC for creation itself.

    And, as I was posting before, I am amazed at the honest intellectual effort this guy Ussher put into this work - way more than the stuff that Russel and later the WT dreamed up (based a lot on Ussher and others). Still, though a real look at how this date came about shows how fuzzy this kind of chronology really is - we don't really even know the date of Jesus birth - let alone exact numbers for all the rest of this string of chronology. (I.E. all the variance in the time creation>>flood). Real historians know this and don't insist on silly arbitrary dates.

    But now poor old Ussher has a lapse of reasoning, spending the last of his time on earth speculating up the month, day, and even hour of the exact day one of creation - 6 pm Saturday 22 October 4004 BC. This last (and maybe some of the first part) was all a figment of imagination.

    James

  • badboy
    badboy

    thanks FOR THE CLARIFICATION

  • badboy
    badboy

    When they say nobody knows when he was born,are they telling the truth because it seems that Early Tradition tells us he was born on the 25th of a certain month,possibly November.

    I also understand that December weather was usually mild,so shepherds could have their flowds *(sp?)outside.

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