Loyalty and betrayal

Narkissos

Those are serious issues in the mind of any (future) xJW.

Actually we're on an exceptional spot in life to ponder on the pitfalls of "loyalty" and the heartbreaking necessity of some "betrayal".

We can rationalise it by saying we are loyal to a higher instance (God, the "truth" or whatever). Yet the feeling (and sometimes guilt) of betrayal may be lingering in our minds.

May I remind those few lines from Friedrich Nietzsche (Thus spake Zarathustra):

When Zarathustra had spoken these words, he paused, like one who had not yet said his last word; and long did he balance the staff doubtfully in his hand. At last he spoke thus- and his voice had changed:
I now go alone, my disciples! You too go now, alone! Thus I want it.
I advise you: depart from me, and guard yourselves against Zarathustra! And better still: be ashamed of him! Perhaps he has deceived you.
The man of knowledge must be able not only to love his enemies, but also to hate his friends.
One requites a teacher badly if one remains merely a student. And why will you not pluck at my wreath?
You venerate me; but what if your veneration should some day collapse? Beware lest a statue crush you!
You say you believe in Zarathustra? But what matters Zarathustra! You are my believers: but what matters all believers!
You had not yet sought yourselves: then you found me. So do all believers; thus all belief matters so little.
Now I bid you lose me and find yourselves; and only when you have all denied me will I return to you.
With other eyes, my brothers, shall I then seek my lost ones; with another love shall I then love you.
And once again you shall become friends to me, and children of one hope: then I will be with you for the third time, to celebrate the great noontide with you.
And it is the great noontide, when man is in the middle of his course between animal and Superman, and celebrates his advance to the evening as his highest hope: for it is the advance to a new morning.
Then will the down-goer bless himself, for being an over-goer; and the sun of his knowledge will be at noontide.
"Dead are all Gods: now we want the Superman to live."- Let this be our final will at the great noontide!-
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

Any thoughts?

tetrapod.sapien

wow.

Nietzsche was a perfect man when he wrote such things. a Superman.

Zarathustra the apostate to his own way and his own disciples. asking for betrayal so that they may find themselves, and become as gods themselves, super-human in the great noontide. beautiful, and fitting for us apostates, imo.

about a year ago i lost all of my few old jw friends. people who i considered beautiful in their own right, and in their own way. i DA'd myself, and betrayed them to mental freedom, and they betrayed me to the WT. i called them all ex-friends for many months, but understood why.

then, last week, on a rainy night, out of the blue my door bell rang. it was my old best friend, coming back to the freindship, a Superman. his own master, and his own disciple. on his way to shedding doctrine and thinking freely. and he thanked me. he said that my hatred of my enemies scared him when i first left. and in a twist of irony, without knowing, ready for the anger, he came back to the friendship right when i have finally shed the anger at the WT.

my ex-wife is now, too, done with the WT. she said it probably would never happened had i not betrayed her by leaving the WT. wow. i never thought these two people would ever find the noontide, but they did.

Nietzsche hits me here like a heavyweight.

when one becomes a Superman, other animals may indeed see their own potential as something more than an animal. but it is not an easy road, and Zarathustra is right. you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

thanks narkissos. i am glad i came to the board today.

TS

AlmostAtheist

Hmmmm... point being that there is a painful and emotionally-conflicting moment between "I am a loyal JW" and "I am an ex-JW" where one must close one's eyes and make a leap?

I could buy that.

"Loyalty" is a funny word anyway. What is it? If you decide to love and adore and obey a rock because you think it's a god, can you be loyal to it? I think so. Since anything YOU experience comes from you. You have loyalty, and you give it to something or someone. Or you don't. But either way, it's yours and it springs from you.

One day you realize your rock is just a rock and not a deity in rock form. You realize you've been loyal to a rock. You're still a loyal person, but you determine that your loyalty was misplaced on the rock. You walk away, taking your loyalty with you.

Betrayal is different, since it extends outside of you. I'm not sure what to say on that one.

Dave

Star Moore

Thanks N. It seems like Jesus said something about...like a seed, he had to die so as to be able to bear fruit. I can't seem to find the scripture. But I felt like I had to D'A myself to as to truly live....and be a superman. Living half in and half out is not being true to anyone..not to God or yourself. At least that's my feeling now.

Narkissos

ts,

then, last week, on a rainy night, out of the blue my door bell rang. it was my old best friend, coming back to the freindship, a Superman. his own master, and his own disciple. on his way to shedding doctrine and thinking freely. and he thanked me.

How nice. And much nicer, isn't it, than if he had "followed" you at once...

AA,

Interesting. I guess the common definition of "loyalty" is external too (loyalty to one's friends, teachers, family, religion, country). I still remember the Bethel elder in charge of the translation dept. (a very nice person and good friend btw) when I resigned: although sad he understood me perfectly, yet was stuck with a deep sense of "loyalty" to the organisation -- not only the machinery but people. I can understand that. And I understand that to an extent I did betray. And I believe this has to be done sometimes, even if it can't be rationalised by any "superior loyalty" -- or, perhaps, loyalty to oneself?

Btw there is an obvious apory in Nietzsche's excerpt, in that the master is asking for betrayal: strictly speaking he's making betrayal a form of obedience, actually making true betrayal impossible. Just like a parent can be proud of a child's disobedience (it happened to me) but cannot ask for it unless placing the child under a sort of "double bind".

SM,

You might be referring to John 12:24ff. Another interesting saying is about the disciple being like his master (Matthew 10:24f//).

daystar

It's odd how people and things speak to a person at times when the need is the greatest. My mind has been circling around this very subject of late.

Thanks N.

freedomlover

Narkissos:

beautiful.

I too, have thought of this recently. loyalty vs. betrayal and how they are relative. it depends how you are looking at the words, from what circumstance you are in. I have felt certain ones will look at me like I've betrayed them or god or the organization. I suppose I have. but in my betrayal, I have been loyal to myself. fine line here.

who determines loyalty? to what? to whom? why do I have to be loyal? why should I be loyal? loyal to what? my family, my spouse, my job, my god, my children, myself? what order do those go in and who determines the order of importance? such questions to figure out.......

tetra - your story of your friend and your wife. I have thought of them compared to my own friends and loved ones. when they hear about me and my "betrayal" many will have to stop and wonder why. it's so not in my character.

what if they turn their back on me? what if my loyalty, which encompassed betrayal, makes them stop and question there own loyalty and where it lies? that would be beautiful, and highly complimentary to me. if my betrayal can help another determine their own loyalty then I would be happy for them, and make this journey so much more worth it.

Narkissos

Thx ds and fl.

One related issue is the common authoritarian tactic which consists in hijacking the word of people, binding them with their own "willful" commitment, sneakingly making any potential "transgression" a betrayal of one's word and self.

The controversial Catholic theologian Eugen Drewermann once made a very insightful comment about this, opposing the priestly vows (of celibacy, poverty etc.) to the Gospel saying: "But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let your word be 'Yes, Yes' or 'No, No'; anything more than this comes from the evil one." (Matthew 5:34ff)

Actually this applies to a lot of situations, even in a "democratic" society (with the underlying basic notion of "social contract"), from the marriage vows to the American Pledge of Allegiance. Even some kids in elementary school are now requested to sign the school regulations. Meaning, not only I know the rules and the potential sanctions for transgression, but I agree with them. This may sound very democratic at first sight, but I think this is morally and psychologically terrible (implying, if I transgress I betray myself). The JW baptismal vows, especially in their current formulation (loyalty to God's "spirit-directed organization"), are just a too obvious example of this method of mind control.

Bumble Bee

Wow,

This couldn't have come at a better time. I'm faced with being loyal to myself, or loyal to my family, betraying myself by staying in this religion, or having my family think I betrayed them.

BB

Forscher

Let me do an imitation of Kant here,
To the disloyal, who have betrayed us, no loyalty is Due!
Cheers!
Forscher

Loyalty and betrayal

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