Loyalty and betrayal

by Narkissos 16 Replies latest jw friends

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  belbab

  Nark and All,

  I have read the following as a "Newfie" joke, and also as a "Blonde" joke. A father draws a circle in the sand around his son and says don't go out of that circle until I tellyou, Then there comes various punch lines.

  But then, reading old Sufi traditions it relates the same, a father draws a line around his son in the sand, and tells him not to leave the circle until he says so.

  I believe this is a riddle, the father does not come back and tell him to leave, he has to rebel against the sayings of his own father.

  Nature does the same, the fat baby robin, flutters to the ground, and sits there, the parents remain at a distance shrieking wildly, warning him to get going, warning that the young one is in a precarious position. You won't find that young robin there on the ground the next day.

  What Nietche said is also expressed in the Bible. Jesus had to leave his disciples, they had to realize that he had given them the teachings that they could stand on their own two feet.

  Your comments about betrayal intrigue me, and opens up new avenues of understanding that I have to explore before commenting.

  belbab
• 

  MerryMagdalene

  I will be re-reading this wonderfully thought-provoking thread when my little one is asleep and not chanting "Everybody likes Balto?" in my ear. LOL

  I very much appreciate what I could take in of the views and experiences expressed here so far. Thanks all.

  ~Merry
• 

  Narkissos

  Thanks all.

  Good luck ((((BumbleBee))))

  belbab, that was a nice parable.

  Teaching independent thinking is always paradoxical and difficult. As Gide once put it: "A good master is constantly concerned with teaching how to dispense from him."

  Reminded me of The Life of Brian:

  Brian Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody. You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals.
  
  Crowd YES! WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS!
  
  Brian You're all different.
  
  Crowd YES. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.
  
  Folowr5 I'm not.
  
  Crowd Ssssh. Sssh.
  
  Brian You've all got to work it our for yourselves.
  
  Crowd YES. WE'VE GOT TO WORK IT OUT FOR OURSELVES.
  
  Brian Exactly.
  
  Crowd TELL US MORE!
  
  Brian No. That's the point. Don't let anyone tell you what to do.
  
  --------[MC comes out 1 minute, 6 seconds later.]
  
  Otherwise... ow! no!

  MM, are we leading parallel lives?
• 

  daystar

  Even some kids in elementary school are now requested to sign the school regulations. Meaning, not only I know the rules and the potential sanctions for transgression, but I agree with them. This may sound very democratic at first sight, but I think this is morally and psychologically terrible (implying, if I transgress I betray myself).The JW baptismal vows, especially in their current formulation (loyalty to God's "spirit-directed organization"), are just a too obvious example of this method of mind control.

  I don't see that taking a vow is morally and psychologically terrible in general, as long as the person taking the vow understands the vow, truly agrees with it and is not under any pressure whatsoever to take the vow.

  Having children sign such a document? Repugnant only if it insists that they agree with the rules rather than just that they understand them.

  I give myself a good deal of credit for understanding at a very early age the sober nature of vows and commitment and refusing to be pushed into JW baptism when I still had so many unanswered questions.
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  Narkissos

  I don't see that taking a vow is morally and psychologically terrible in general, as long as the person taking the vow understands the vow, truly agrees with it and is not under any pressure whatsoever to take the vow.

  Depends on the relationship between the individual subject and time / becoming. Can we change? How can we? How much can we?

  A vow, even if nobody requires it, may be construed as an attempt (a shortsighted attempt) at preserving oneself from becoming.

  Having children sign such a document? Repugnant only if it insists that they agree with the rules rather than just that they understand them.

  Unfortunately that was the case.

  I give myself a good deal of credit for understanding at a very early age the sober nature of vows and commitment and refusing to be pushed into JW baptism when I still had so many unanswered questions.

  Good for you!
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  JamesThomas

  Good post Narkissos.

  I have found the theme of loyalty and betrayal to be a common one within the search for truth; which is like a process of subtraction. In the end it can become pretty radical in that there must be a total betrayal, or letting go of what we believe ourselves to be. A step from the edge of everything which is familiar and warm, off the cliff into the vast unknown, alone.

  j
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  Narkissos

  Thanks JT...

  Loneliness is, indeed, the scary part.

  "Blessed are the solitary and the elect, for you will find the Kingdom! Because you have issued from it, you will return to it again." (Gospel of Thomas 49).