Funny enough thought thou - if the 'liar' Joseph Smith could write such sublime made up scripture that answers many of the theological tussles where does that leave the bible? - maybe those who disbelieve in the bible now should hold up the BOM as an example of how a God isn't required to write scripture - you just need someone with a good imagination and a poetic turn of phrase.
The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation
by IP_SEC 64 Replies latest watchtower bible
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greendawn
Not only was it untenable to try and claim that Christianity could not produce 144000 saints in 1900 years (on average 76 per year) but the context of the other sheep is obvious enough, they were the samaritans and gentiles soon to begin to be gathered into the church. Not the members of a shady cultic group that was to appear after two millenia.
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Hellrider
Looks like you have no takers, IP_SEC. I have tried this on a JW allready, on another forum. It started out as a 607vs587-thread, then we got into the ressurection-issue, then we started on the 144000. Pages 14 - 18 deals with the 144K. My nick is "Ba`al", the JWs nick is "Dan". He`s about average (for JWs) in brains, very stubborn and WTS-loyalist. Here`s the thread, brings you straight to page 14:
http://profindsearch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195
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Death to the Pixies
Sorry, I do not have a bible handy, so I will try my best to summarize this off the top of my head. Sorry if it sounds incoherent, maybe when I awaken and have more energy I can be more thorough.
IP Sec, . It would help you to keep in mind the timeline involved in Jesus' words at John 10:16. If you do, you will see that such scriptures that speak of "Go to the Lost sheep of Israel only" (paraphrase) only enhance the JW view.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, such as Jeremiah 31:31-34, you will see that the Kingdom was to be given to the Jews, the Seed of Abraham, Israel alone. The "World" was not to be the recievers of this Kingdom, as the "nation of Kings and priests" but were to be blessed by this Seed and Kingdom..
Therefore when Jesus uttered the words at John 10:16, he very well could have been distinguishing between Jews and Gentiles literally. But what did this distinction entail? Quite frankly, the Role/position between Jew and Gentile. AT this point in Jesus ministry we hear **nothing** about there "being no distinction between Jew and Greek", that was later done by Paul and others, and for a reason. There came to be no fleshly distinction **only** because Jews by nature did not accept Christ and the door had to be opened to the Gentiles until the full number was to be reached. Romans 11 is clear in the "Olive tree" illustration and the branches being lopped off.
The distinction in flesh was over, but the distinction in role/position never ended. I do contend that John 10:16 still holds a distinction between (jews, israel) and Gentiles (other sheep). Later what came to be a jew was spirtualized.
So was Jesus distinguishing Jewish and Gentile believers? Yes. Does this harm the JW view? No.
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NowImFree
When I started researching the organization and really reading the bible, this jumped out at me, that the two flocks becoming one flock under Jesus as the one Sheperd were Jews and Gentiles. It is very clear in scripture. And to top it all off, the bible says the two flocks will become ONE. So why do the JWs say there are two separate flocks with two separate destinations? Their teaching makes absolutely no sense to me, which is why I'm out.
NowImFree
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IP_SEC
So was Jesus distinguishing Jewish and Gentile believers? Yes. Does this harm the JW view? No.
Perhaps you could clarify this. Maybe the point was in your post, but I'm beat for the day. I'll look at it with your refs in the morn.
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Hellrider
to top it all off, the bible says the two flocks will become ONE. So why do the JWs say there are two separate flocks with two separate destinations? Their teaching makes absolutely no sense to me, which is why I'm out.
That`s not so hard to figure out. The distinction between the two flocks justifies the WTS`s hierarchical structure, and this tradition goes way back in the history of the WTS. Only the annointed could become "top dogs" in the organisation. And, of course, to have your claim of "annointed...ness" accepted (which you had to do, to get to the top), you needed connections, licking the right peoples backsides, lobbying, etc. And so, if you got the annointed-thing thru, you could elbow your way to the top of the organisation. These days, that won`t work, of course, because the "annointed" class is really filled up, and to shove any more in there, they have to (silently) declare previous annointed as "apostates" - so to get that annointed-claim thru these days is really hard. But that`s at least how it was in the old days. Just think of it as a ("spiritual"...) MAFIA.
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TD
So was Jesus distinguishing Jewish and Gentile believers? Yes. Does this harm the JW view? No.
I can't quite figure out if you're agreeing or disagreeing with IP_SEC.
Let me see if I understand.... As Jesus used the term, "Other Sheep" was a reference to Gentile believers. But at the time Jesus made the remark there weren't any Gentile believers. Gentile believers wouldn't appear until the conversion of Cornelius. But at the conversion of Cornelius, his entire household was anointed with the spirit, so they weren't really "Other Sheep" at all, they were really part of the "Little Flock?"
IP_SEC and most Christian commentators contend that the anointing of Gentiles is exactly the event that Jesus was in fact talking about. The door was opened to the Gentiles and they were anointed with the spirit the same as the Jews (Acts 10:34,35; 44-48) The Soreg was knocked down and the two groups become one flock.
I can think of several JW views that are harmed by this:
One JW view is that there was no Earthly hope from the time of Pentacost clear up until the early 20th century (cf. W82 2/14 p. 30; UW p111) There was only one hope, the heavenly one.
Closely allied with this view is another, which holds that during the Christian era, the "Other Sheep" are synonymous with the "Great Crowd" which was not identified until the year 1935. (cf. W03 2/14 p. 19; W02 2/1 p. 21; W01 5/15 p.15)
Taken together, these two JW views do not allow for the existence of Christian "Other Sheep" for almost the entire history of Christianity. --Certainly nothing that Jesus could have been refering to in the present tense.
Another veiw that JW's specifically teach is that the "Other sheep" were not Gentile believers. (cf. W95 2/1 pp.10-11) This view is certainly harmed by allowing that Jesus was in fact making that distinction.
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Death to the Pixies
Td,
I am saying the Jew/Gentile distinction mandated a distinction in terms of being a reciever of the Kingdom and ruling as Priests, and being blessed by this arrangement.
If we take the timeline into consideration, The Jews had not yet been rejected as the sole recievers of the New covenent. That talk of Gentiles being let into the NC came later and for a reason.
This does not harm JW theology.
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Death to the Pixies
TD:Let me see if I understand.... As Jesus used the term, "Other Sheep" was a reference to Gentile believers. But at the time Jesus made the remark there weren't any Gentile believers. Gentile believers wouldn't appear until the conversion of Cornelius. But at the conversion of Cornelius, his entire household was anointed with the spirit, so they weren't really "Other Sheep" at all, they were really part of the "Little Flock?"
Reply: I agree there were no Gentile believers, but after Israel was to become adherents to the New Covenent , they would be gathered in together w/Israel, not as Israel, but another fold *not* of thier sort. Jesus' message was for Israel, they were "his people" (JOhn 3) and alone his brothers, the Covenent he came to give was for them soley.
TD:I can think of several JW views that are harmed by this:
One JW view is that there was no Earthly hope from the time of Pentacost clear up until the early 20th century (cf. W82 2/14 p. 30; UW p111) There was only one hope, the heavenly one.
Reply: Why is this harmed?
TD: Closely allied with this view is another, which holds that during the Christian era, the "Other Sheep" are synonymous with the "Great Crowd" which was not identified until the year 1935. (cf. W03 2/14 p. 19; W02 2/1 p. 21; W01 5/15 p.15)
Reply: Why is this harmed? If we take GaryBs' WT quote into consideration, you will see how this ties together with my post..
TD: Taken together, these two JW views do not allow for the existence of Christian "Other Sheep" for almost the entire history of Christianity. --Certainly nothing that Jesus could have been refering to in the present tense.
Reply: A Jew Gentile distinction at this point, according to my post, still makes a Heaven/Earth distinction. I believe the distinction is now spiritual, with the gatehring of the "Gentiles" or "Other sheep" not happening until Israel was filled. I don't think you have grasped my point yet, and that could be my fault. I look forward to clearing this up as time permits.
Again, Context, Jesus' at the time of his words in John 10:16, was talking to natural Jews, whom LATER were rejected. If the Jews did not reject the Messiah, the Gentiles would have never been needed to replace the lopped off branches, or become recievers of the NC. They were only included, as Paul says, because of Israels failure or false step. Romans 11:11 :
"But through their (Fleshly Jews) fall... salvation has come to the Gentiles. " NKJ
"Has come" Only because of Israels rejection has the NC come to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:46: "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you First. SINCE you Reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles"
Same point, "SINCE you reject...WE NOW turn to the Gentiles"