The other sheep: Looking for an apologist to offer an explanation

by IP_SEC 64 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  cabasilas

  From: http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/onehope.html

  "Jesus Has 'Other Sheep,' Earthly Sheep!"

  John 10:16: "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."

  Traditional Christian belief has been that these other sheep are the Gentiles (starting in the first century) who would join Jewish believers and form one body of believers. Some say that Jesus was prophesying an earthly class to be formed nearly two thousand years later. Let's read something in the next chapter:

  John 11:49-52: "But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them: 'You do not know anything at all, and you do not reason out that it is to your behalf for one man to die in behalf of the people and not for the whole nation to be destroyed.' This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might gather together in one."

  In the very next chapter John speaks of the Jewish nation and others 'not of that nation,' who would be gathered into one. Wouldn't it be more likely that these Gentiles would be the other sheep? (Compare Ephesians 2:11-22.)
• 

  Rooster

  How would we be able to identify the Governing Body that Jesus put in charge of His domestic? Yes if everyone was to do as Jesus commanded we would all partake at the memorial. Jesus would decide who would go to heaven and who would stay here on the earth and we would not know who to look up to other then Jesus Himself. Anarchy will run rapid through the non-Christian organization know as Jehovah’s Witnesses with out the GB. The titles such as Zone Overseer, Special Pioneer, & District Overseer would all be replace with simple brother & sister. What we would look to Jesus Christ for direction and get under His yoke. The government will shut us down and take away our positions. Where are we to live and eat for free?

  Please stop asking these loaded pointed questions they will upset our Judaism.
• 

  jeanniebeanz

  Please stop asking these loaded pointed questions they will upset our Judaism.

  lol... how true, Rooster. I think Narc nailed the true meaning of those scriptures in his earlier post.

  Jean
• 

  mdb

  Hellrider,

  It makes sense that they are all jews, as Jesus did all his teaching in Palestine/Judah. So, the 144K (not a literal number btw) is the first ones, those that saw his works, and followed him.

  Are you saying that that those who saw His works, living at the time Jesus was on earth, are the ones that make up the 144000? Those mentioned in Matt 27:55,56 would be a part of that group then, correct? They would have to be since they saw His works and ministered to Him. They followed Jesus and were saved through faith (born again).

  And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.
  Matt 27:55,56

  What about Revelation (Rev 7:1-8)? The 144000 clearly come out of the end times. Look at the order of evens... the sixth seal opened.

  Also note the following passage:

  These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.
  Rev 14:4,5

  As far as I can tell, all those in Matt 27:55,56 are women not men, and being that there are mothers mentioned here (two out of three), neither are they virgins. That's a big problem. Apparently the Watchtower believes that women are included in the 144000. This teaching is not Scriptural. The 144000 are Jewish virgin men redeemed from the earth at the time of the sixth seal being broken.
• 

  IP_SEC

  So, the 144K (not a literal number btw)

  
  

  So, the 144K (not a literal number btw)

  
  

  So, the 144K (not a literal number btw)

  Yall stay on topic please, I really want a W to post here to prove this wrong.
• 

  Hellrider

  mdb:

  What about Revelation (Rev 7:1-8)? The 144000 clearly come out of the end times. Look at the order of evens... the sixth seal opened.

  I`m not so sure about that. The opening of the seals doesn`t necessarily refer to a sequence in time, at least if you avoid the futurist method of interpretation. "Come out of the end times"? Where are the end times mentioned in all this? It is the WTS that has linked absolutely everything in Revelation to the end times. I believe that parts of Revelation does refer to the future, the second coming and the end times, yes, but not all of it. Much of it refers to things happening right then and there.

  The 144000 are Jewish virgin men redeemed from the earth at the time of the sixth seal being broken.

  You may be right about that, that they are all men. But this doesn`t mean that the "144K" are male virgins from the time of Christ, does it? However, I don`t agree with your interpretation of time in Revelation. The opening of the seals is not necessarily something that happens immediately before the second coming. This all happens "out of time". And even if we were to see this as something happening "in time" (as in "human time"/years), why does the opening of the 6th seal have to be something that happens...10 years before Armageddon? 20? 80? 100? 200? 1000? 1800? ....What I`m trying to say is that 6th seal could have been opened (principally...) a ...oh, say, a week after John the elder wrote this! I don`t know if that made any sense, or anyone understood what I was trying to say with this.
• 

  Narkissos

  For the Revelation debate (distinct from the topic of this thread): http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/96705/1.ashx
• 

  Qcmbr

  11 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he said unto those twelve whom he had chosen:
  12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.
  13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.
  14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.
  15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.
  16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:
  17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
  18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.
  19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.
  20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.
  21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
  22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
  23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice--that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
  24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.
• 

  TD

  LOL Qcmbr -- 3 Nephi 15:11-24

  ---The BOM doesn't count for much with either JW's or XJW's though.
• 

  Qcmbr

  I know just offering another possible explanation - also was so excited about watching Battlestar Galactica that I didn't bother righting disclaimers - ah well.