by Spectrum 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
A Paduan, are you asking if they were being threatened? It's a natural reaction in people who are working a little more leisurely than they feel they should. But seriously, there were a lot of mixed motives at the time. Many sincere people got hurt and many insincere people got caught out.
Danny, according to that parable you should get your reward whether you grumble or not. I hope you win out in the end! Keep up the good work.
Cellist
Put these people in front o Jesus or hard case Jehovah and what would they have said to these lastminute.kingdom pioneers.
Jesus?
"Thanks for the effort - I understand that all that lying probably distracted you"
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Don't know about 'jehovah'
Hi spectrum,
I too agree with your nephew to a point. Those people who made changes were gullible, and/or worried about their own hides and/or were going along with the JW crowd.
My parents got baptized in the early 70's out of fear of dying at Armageddon. They made major life changes to avoid being killed, rather than out of any love for God or people. My relatives still use the threat of dying at Armageddon when trying to motivate people to get baptized or spend more time in service or pioneer or lately, not go to college. They are selfish and fear-motivated.
They look at me like I'm crazy when I say that my activities (considered trivial by WT standards, but much by 'worldly' standards) reflect my faith, I believe God is merciful and I fully trust and accept any Divine Judgment of me.
Jeremiah 27:12-18 — Even to Zed·e·ki´ah the king of Judah I spoke according to all these words, saying: “Bring YOUR necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him and his people and keep on living. 13 Why should you yourself and your people die by the sword, by the famine and by the pestilence according to what Jehovah has spoken to the nation that does not serve the king of Babylon? 14 And do not listen to the words of the prophets that are saying to YOU men, ‘YOU will not serve the king of Babylon,’ because falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU.
15 “‘For I have not sent them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘but they are prophesying in my name falsely, to the end that I shall disperse YOU, and YOU will have to perish, YOU men and the prophets that are prophesying to YOU.’”
16 And to the priests and to all this people I spoke, saying: “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘Do not listen to the words of YOUR prophets that are prophesying to YOU, saying: “Look! The utensils of the house of Jehovah are being brought back from Babylon soon now!” For falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU. 17 Do not listen to them. Serve the king of Babylon and keep on living. Why should this city become a devastated place? 18 But if they are prophets and if the word of Jehovah does exist with them, let them, please, beseech Jehovah of armies, that the utensils that are remaining over in the house of Jehovah and the house of the king of Judah and in Jerusalem may not come into Babylon.’
Your nephew is only right IF the people who sold everything were looking for brownie points. In the Bible, God is frequently shown rewarding those who were willing to give up everything to do his will, ample evidence of that. Unfortunately, the people who gave up everything before 1975 weren't listening to God. They were listening to false prophets. Your nephew ASSUMES they thought they would get brownie points, and by doing so sits himself in the judgment seat against those people.
Is it calloused to put it in such harsh terms as, "They deserved it?" Yes, I believe it is. Was it their own fault? Yes, to the degree that they were fooled by people who claimed to speak for God. They believed they were obeying God and pleasing God. I don't think they deserved to be lied to. I don't think your 17-year-old nephew personally knows the motives behind the acts of ... well, of anybody who lived before 1975. But the core of his argument is that they did it out of bad motive. Questioning the motives of others with the intent of demeaning their reputation is called slander, among Jehovah's Witnesses
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
AuldSoul, you are right on the money!
AuldSoul,
"Is it calloused to put it in such harsh terms as, "They deserved it?" Yes, I believe it is. "
Because you are a well meaning kind hearted person you will see my nephew's response as harsh and callous but I really beg to differ with you because we are talking about like for like, Jehovah and Jehovah's Witnesses.
His comments were based on the standards of the organisation that they all belonged to, those that fell for it and those that didn't. He did not judge them any harsher than he would have been judged by them had the tables been turned.
Callous and harsh. I don't think so. Why? Because that these are Jehovah's people through and through and Jehovah doesn't take prisoners. You don't get much of a second chance with Jehovah. He is judgmental to the nth degree.
" Questioning the motives of others with the intent of demeaning their reputation is called slander,"
I don't think he was trying to do that. I gave him the senario, "they sold up and got to preaching at the last minute before the end", and the first obvious assumption that came to him was they got what they deserved. Pretty much Jehovah God style antics.
Serendipity,
" Those people who made changes were gullible, and/or worried about their own hides and/or were going along with the JW crowd."
I agree. It's ironic that JWs teach not to follow the crowd!
I would have agreed with your nephew if it hadn`t been for the fact that I`ve seen those articles printed in the magazines in which the WTBTS itself (!!!) points out 1975 as the year. I`ve also seen that article in which those that quit their jobs and went pioneering for those last, important couple of years prior to -75, were praised for their actions. Like that article said "what a wonderful way to spend the remaining time in this system of things". Take those articles and press your nephews face down into them, as you would do with a puppy that just refuses to stop pissing and shitting on the livingroom floor...
Spectrum,
the first obvious assumption that came to him was they got what they deserved.
If his assumption was fairly represented in your first post and was based the fact that they sold off and got to preaching, then he assumed a motive not stated in the premise, as well. In other words, the first obvious assumption was very likely flawed because it was an assumption that included a detail not included in the facts presented—motive.
Unless you misrepresented his statement in your initial post. Or unless you are misrepresenting the facts you related that served as basis for his assumption.
He said "They deserve it. They thought that they were going to get extra brownie points from God for giving up their comforts for a short period. It should have been in their hearts from the beginning to save people and not try to make a big show of it to God right at then end."
Let's take this in parts:
(1) "They deserve it. They thought [fill in the blank with whatever motive you like]."
Please explain how your nephew knows what they thought. If your 17-year-old nephew doesn't know what they thought, then he assumed what they thought, which he presents as motive. The motive he assumes was present is an ulterior and a selfish one.
(2) "It should have been in their hearts from the beginning to save people and not try to make a big show of it to God right at then end."
What would you do if you genuinely believed the world would end next year? Are you actually going to try and convince me your life would not change at all? Your priorities would not change at all? What about your nephew?
Was it not in their hearts "from the beginning to save people?" How did your nephew come by that knowledge? His remark was incredibly judgmental and terribly misinformed, in my opinion. He assumes they were trying to make a big show of saving people right at the end, when they might have simply felt freed up to do so more fully since this old system is ending next year anyway.
My only challenge to what your nephew said is it evidences narrowmindedness in his application of reasoning skills, a penchant for excusing his precious organization for any actual HARM they cause, and a leap to a prejudiced conclusion. There is a highly plausible alternate viewpoint, but he chose the one that criticizes the lowly adherents rather than the errant prognosticators (false prophets) who held themselves above others.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Your nephews argument is flawed.
The kingdom ministry plainly commended those that sold their homes and increased their time, because the end was "imminent".
My JW hubby's attitude is similar, and I can only conclude he's absorbed it from the veterans at the hall, his attitude is plainly, "Suckerrs!"
So somehow the JW's who stuck it out AND decided it wasn't necessary to take the hype all that seriously were the smart ones? What about the JW's today, my hubby included, who have bought in to the current teaching that Armageddon is right around the corner. He's no better, postponing any long term planning, because in HIS mind, THERE IS NO FUTURE in this old world.
Lucky for him he's got me and my pension.
