- Hello all to all my Brothers of the faith. I have some information in relation to the dates 607BCE and 587/586BCE, with the simple explanation of the 70years exile. The WT still sticks with the 607BCE due to the fact that the Governing Bodys explains that the Jews returned back at about 537BCE, assuming that they were finished with their bondage. Whereas, all historic evidence with all reference books state that the year 586BCE was the year that the first Temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. As references do indicate that 605BCE was the year Nebuchadnezzar started his rulership. Here is the simple chart to explain the 70 year bondage.
Nebuchadnezzar ruled in 605BCE
He took Judah in 587BCE on his 18th year of rulership. 605-18=587BCE Jeremiah 32:1+2a
He destroyed the temple in 586BCE, and removed their belongings, including all items from the first Temple.
The people started their 70yr captivity from 586BCE
Darius the Mede (king of the CITY of Babylon) ruled in 522BCE. 586-522=64 years.
The SECOND Temple was finished and all its belongings were returned or replaced in the "sixth year" of Darius the Mede. EZRA 6:15. 64 years+6 years= 70 years.
See also all of Ezra chapter 6
So, from this simple chart, the scriptures with ALL evidences in all reference books shows that 586BCE was the year that the Temple was destroyed. We may get confused with the term "the babylonien captivity", meaning than the captivity would only take place during the Babylonion world empire. But as Jer 27:6 does state that Jehovah would give it all to his servent, Nebuchadnezzar,the King of Babylon. When the Medes and Persions took over the world empire, it was Cyrus the Mede that was the next King of Babylon- meaning THE CITY of Babylon. In fact, records show that he resided there. In time, Darus the Mede was to be the King of Babylon (the city). The full explanation of all their goods and posessions that Nebuchadnezzar originally took from the people- with the second Temple compleatly finished- was returnrd back to them. This is recorded in Ezra chapter six. Keith
607BCE or 587/586BCE explained
by truth about the last days 62 Replies latest watchtower bible
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truth about the last days
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Woodsman
Interesting. 70 years was temple to temple. Never heard it that way before.
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stillajwexelder
OK lets run a sweepstake - how long before Scholar posts on this thread - I give it to before we get to 10 posts
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AuldSoul
This is a Judaic viewpoint, which happens to work out mathematically. However, it still attaches the destruction of the temple to the seventy years. This appears to be the perspective that Ezra and the returning Israelites had of things, but there may have been some attachment of prophecy to themselves that the Bible attached to Babylon.
In the original prophecy to which both Ezra and Daniel referred, Jeremiah wrote what would occur at the end of the 70 years:
Jeremiah 25:12 — "'And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.'"
There was no calling Babylon to account in 537 BC nor in 516/15 BC (the timing of the completion of the new temple). The fact that Babylon and Babylon's King would be called to account at the fulfillment of 70 years is not explained by either theory. However, from the fall of Assyria (609 BC) to the evening where this happened:
Daniel 5:26 — “This is the interpretation of the word: ME´NE, God has numbered [the days of] your kingdom and has finished it."
In fact, the marginal references in the NWT for Daniel 5:26 acknowledge this viewpoint. Add to this the fact that Jeremiah 27 specifically warn Zedekiah that the city and people need not be harmed for the fulfillment of the prophecy to occur:
Jeremiah 27:1-14 — In the beginning of the kingdom of Je·hoi´a·kim the son of Jo·si´ah, the king of Judah, this word occurred to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying: 2 “This is what Jehovah has said to me, ‘Make for yourself bands and yoke bars, and you must put them upon your neck. 3 And you must send them to the king of E´dom and to the king of Mo´ab and to the king of the sons of Am´mon and to the king of Tyre and to the king of Si´don by the hand of the messengers who are coming to Jerusalem to Zed·e·ki´ah the king of Judah. 4 And you must give them a command for their masters, saying:
“‘“This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said; this is what YOU should say to YOUR masters, 5 ‘I myself have made the earth, mankind and the beasts that are upon the surface of the earth by my great power and by my stretched-out arm; and I have given it to whom it has proved right in my eyes. 6 And now I myself have given all these lands into the hand of Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant; and even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 And all the nations must serve even him and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes, and many nations and great kings must exploit him as a servant.’
8 “‘“‘And it must occur that the nation and the kingdom that will not serve him, even Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon; and the one that will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, with the sword and with the famine and with the pestilence I shall turn my attention upon that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘until I shall have finished them off by his hand.’
9 “‘“‘And as for YOU men, do not listen to YOUR prophets and to YOUR practicers of divination and to YOUR dreamers and to YOUR practicers of magic and to YOUR sorcerers, who are saying to YOU: “YOU men will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU, for the purpose of having YOU taken far away from off YOUR ground; and I shall have to disperse YOU, and YOU will have to perish.
11 “‘“‘And as for the nation that will bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and actually serve him, I will also let it rest upon its ground,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘and it will certainly cultivate it and dwell in it.’”’”
12 Even to Zed·e·ki´ah the king of Judah I spoke according to all these words, saying: “Bring YOUR necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him and his people and keep on living. 13 Why should you yourself and your people die by the sword, by the famine and by the pestilence according to what Jehovah has spoken to the nation that does not serve the king of Babylon? 14 And do not listen to the words of the prophets that are saying to YOU men, ‘YOU will not serve the king of Babylon,’ because falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU.In other words, the seventy years of Jeremiah 25 are clearly being applied by Jeremiah to Babylon and its Kings, not to Judah. This period of dominion would last "until the time" for Babylon's own land came. Judah was being warned against being resistant to the rule of Babylon. Jeremiah warned Jehoiakim, Jeconiah (Jehoiachin), and Zedekiah to submit and spare themselves.
The temple never need to be destroyed for the 70 years to be fulfilled. The temple was only destroyed because the nation refused to submit to Babylon's dominion. Babylon's 70 year period of ascendancy (following the destruction of the preceding dominant power, Assyria) ran from 609 BC (fall of Harran) to 539 BC (the year when Daniel revealed the meaning of the handwriting).
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
PMJ
The beginning of the "Times of the Gentiles" is thus seen to occur at the point of Zedekiah’s overthrow, which is also linked with the destruction of Jerusalem that followed immediately thereafter. The proper dating of this event, then, becomes critical for a correct application of the period of the prophecy in the stream of history. However, this is precisely where a 20 year discrepancy between the Bowen/ Russell chronology (607 B. C.) and that of civil history (587 B. C.) is found. Such a difference in dating the beginning of the period will obviously result in a similar difference in its ending (1914 A. D. versus 1934 A. D.), assuming agreement in the length of the period. (It should be kept in mind that some commentators, such as C. O. Jonsson in his work, The Gentile Times Reconsidered, have overthrown faith in the prophecy altogether.) Nevertheless, we are reviewing the facts connected with the "Times of the Gentiles" in order to show that it is indeed a valid Scriptural concept and to confirm its correct application.
The starting point of this period can be ascertained by combining the Scriptural accounts of Judah’s downfall with known tie- in points from secular history. Nebuchadnezzar as the head of the Babylonian Empire was God’s instrument to bring Jewish independence to a violent end. He brought to reality what the prophets had foretold:that the Temple would be razed, Jerusalem destroyed, the people taken captive and the land left desolate. The beginning of Gentile dominance was thus characterized by an intensity of violence and suffering upon the Israelites that is un- mistakable in the annals of history.
The exact date of Zedekiah’s overthrow, and hence the beginning of the "Times of the Gentiles," is determined as Follows:ezr 1:1- 3 (repeated in 2Ch 36:19- 23) states that the Israelites were permitted to return from the captivity in Babylon in the first year of Cyrus, King of Persia. The fall of Babylon, whichoccurred just prior to this event, is a clearly marked date in secular chronology, which almost all historians agree occurred in October, 539 B. C. (See, for example, Parker and Dubberstein, Babylonian Chronology, pp. 13- 14.) According to Da 5:3031 and 9:1, Darius the Mede then took over the kingdom and reigned at least one year, possibly as subordinate ruler under Cyrus. In any event, Cyrus’first year on the Babylonian throne is taken as 538- 537 B. C. (Lamb, Cyrus the Great, p. 241; Jonsson, p. 108; etc.)
According to Ezr 3:1, the Jews who returned from the exile in Babylonia were again established in various cities of their homeland by the seventh month (Tishri or Sept. -Oct.) of the year of the return. Time restraints would seem to favor that year as being 537 B. C. rather than 538 B. C. Some reflection shows it is doubtful that there was sufficient time remaining in 538 B. C. after Cyrus gained the throne for the necessary sequence of events to occur:these would include the issuance of the decree, Zerubbabel’s organizing the first contingent of returnees, the thousand mile journey to Palestine and the resettling in the land, all by the seventh month of that year. It seems reasonable to conclude, then, that 537 B. C. marked the ending of THE BIBLICAL 70 YEARS of desolation and major captivity; and seventy years earlier (the time of Judah’s defeat) would then have been the year 607 B. C.
The sequence of events that occurred in that year (607 B. C.), according to 2 Kings chapter 25, Was:zedekiah’s overthrow in the fourth month, the Temple burned in the fifth month and the final remnant of Jews fleeing to Egypt in the seventh month. Thus from the complete desertion of the land in the seventh month of 607 B. C. to the reestablishment of the people in the land in the seventh month of 537 B. C. would have been just 70 years, exactly as foretold.
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BlackSwan of Memphis
stilla, you got pmj instead, but still by 5 posts!
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AuldSoul
The beginning of the "Times of the Gentiles" is thus seen to occur at the point of Zedekiah’s overthrow, which is also linked with the destruction of Jerusalem that followed immediately thereafter.
It is, specifically, the "thus seen" portion of this that is fallacious, PMJ. The Gentile Times come from Daniel 7, not from Jeremiah 25. Daniel records the he received that dream in the first year of Belshazzar (Daniel 7:1) which was some time after the "Gentile Times" supposedly started according to WTS dogma. But, don't take my word for it:
Daniel 7:23-26 — “This is what he said, ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the [other] kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate. 25 And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally.
Compare this to Luke 21:
Luke 21:20-24 — “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; 22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."
PMJ, stating something doesn't make it true. Nothing in Jesus statement or the context links to 607 BC in any way. Nothing in Daniel 7 links to 607 BC in any way. Stating when the Gentile Times began as a foundation point for establishing 607 BC is three steps beyond absurd, it is using an unsubstantiable date to establish an otherwise unsubstantiable date.
In short, there is no demonstrable joining point between Daniel 7 and Jeremiah 25-27, just as there in no demonstrable joining point between Daniel 7 and Daniel 4. The meanings and interpretations of all that crap don't come from the Bible or secular history. The interpretations come from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, the meanings and import are all made up—inventions and deceits (of either misrepresentations or outright lies) that are used as pretext for divine authority.
It should make you wonder why you come here to talk with us instead of speaking frankly with the "friends" in your congregation. You know as well as I that there is a limit to what you can safely discuss with your "spiritual" associates. You enjoy the freedom of posting your views here and I am glad you do. But if you manage to convince us to become like you we lose our freedom of speech, just as you have.
Whoa! I just noticed, I am over 2000 posts!
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
atypical
PMJ, it appears you cut and pasted that information. Do you truly understand it, or do you believe it because it says so in a publication? No offense meant, I just ask because I spent most of my life believing things just because I saw them printed by the society. It wasn't until recently that I started breaking things down and deciding for myself what makes sense.
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PMJ
IM NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE YOU.THE POST WAS TO SHOW PEOPLE NOT EVERYTHING YOU SAY HAS TO BE CORRECT.IM JUST SHOWING THEM THERE IS TWO SIDES TO A STORY YOU HAVE YOURS WE HAVE OURS
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PMJ
I DID NOT COPY AND PASTE THAT INFORMATION FROM ANYTHING THE WATCHTOWER HAVE PUBLISHED.WERE DID YOU GET THAT FROM?