To all snipers and bombers

by Norm 33 Replies latest jw friends

  • Norm
    Norm

    The approach of ex-Jehovah's Witnesses towards those still Witnesses has been debated since the problem first occurred. Personally I joined the ranks of ex-Witnesses in 1988 and found myself more or less thrown into the fray appearing in media like newspapers, radio and TV.

    One of the first things I noticed was the interest bestowed upon me from “competing” churches, particularly from the Pentecostalism camp. They seemed to be very keen on traveling the country with their own “tame” ex-JW on display telling everyone about how “JESUS” finally saved me from the clutches of the evil Watchtower. Fortunately my BS detector was sufficiently developed to see through this scheme.

    During the many years since then I have discovered a lot of things about the whole realm of religion and religiosity. One of the most striking characteristic’s among religious people is their distaste for bluntness and directness. Everything has to be gently wrapped a couple of thousand times unto the point of complete meaninglessness. You see a lot of this when you call some of the incidents recorded in the Bible by their right names, like genocide, ethnic cleaning and pedophilia. This seem to be way to much and people are of course “offended” all round and lament and moan about the horrible language, etc. Of course we all understand that “horrible language” and “bad form” are far worse than genocide, mass murder and pedophilia.

    The same phenomenon seem to come to the fore when someone present their research on the Watchtower Society and present such research with all possible documentation but use blunt and frank language about those responsible for the lies and deceit being carried out by the various leaders of the Watchtower Society. The very same “need” for multiple “wrapping” comes up again and again. The horror of having blunt and direct characterizations of the Watchtower leaders and their flock seems to be extremely “offensive” to these people.

    In some cases you find that some of those who are so “offended” on behalf of all the poor people in the GB, and other high ranking Watchtower officials (which is of course “only human beings” and thus “only victims” themselves), and of course the innocent rank and file, are former Watchtower “career” people themselves. Having relatively high positions within the Watchtower hierarchy and used to being obeyed and listened to without question, they seem to be expecting the same behavior from the ex-JW community, and their habit of launching into long pontificating speeches about bad attitudes, bitterness, anger, etc. is still the same It is of course very sad to observe that some of the ex-Witnesses seem to be willing to let such individuals continue their pontificating and literally still “work” as DO’s and CO’s only this time in the ex-Witness community.

    The GB and all Jehovah's Witnesses are of course only humans, they have joined or have been born into an organizations which have hurt hundreds and thousands of lives. True, they are only a little part of a larger system of religion based on the Bible which have caused and committed some of the most horrible atrocities ever inflicted on mankind. This very system is basically still in place, it still enjoy immense power and influence over people’s lives and have no interest in having such facts spelled out in blunt language.
    If such horrible deeds and such behavior had been perpetrated by any other kind of system, there would have been no holding back and we would have seen it all described in terms which fit the horrible deeds. Take for instance the crimes committed by the Nazi’s in the relative short time they had the power. These crimes completely pales in significance when compared with what Christianity has committed in the long period they have had power and influence. Only when mankind was able to break that power, did it become possible to slowly develop the society we see today, while fighting the men of darkness all the way.

    Seen in the perspective of the immense crimes perpetrated by the Christians religion up through the ages, the ones perpetrated by the Watchtower Society of course pale in insignificance. But unfortunately they to have destroyed far too many lives with their insane Talmudic rules and regulations in the best Biblical and Christian tradition. Thanks to them, people have died in their best years because of the insane Blood policy. People have been caused much pain and suffering and have even committed suicide because of their shunning policy and last but not least far to many children have been molested because of their insane adherence to “biblical principles”. The whole community of Jehovah's Witnesses, the leaders and the rank and file all have a responsibility in this, like it or not.

    What approach the individual ex-Witness want to use when getting in contact with current Jehovah's Witnesses is something which we should leave up to each and every one of us who feel we have something to contribute in that respect. To the great champions and high protectors of the elusive “lurkers” which is too frail to venture into the harsh world of reality, I can only wish you all the best in your effort. May you all have a great success and following in your new capacity.

    Norm.

  • larc
    larc

    Norm,

    Although you use a very direct approach, it is also a well reasoned and logical one. Your many threads on verifable WT quotes their down right foolishness are very well done. It was this kind of thinking and reasoning on my own many years ago that led me out of the organization. I think your approach is fine, and I never see you belittle individuals here or engage in flame wars.

    I think it is fine for a nervous lurker to be exposed to rational thought. I do think it is contraproductive to belittle or demean them, which has happened on occasion here.

    It can be a shattering experience when a person's total belief system collapses. I think we all know that, and collectively we possess the expertise here to help people through that trauma.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello Norm,

    Without putting words into your mouth I presume that your post was for my benefit as I seem to be the lone voice crying out on this issue.

    I appreciate and accept the tenets of your argument, especially its conclusion.

    You note :

    During the many years since then I have discovered a lot of things about the whole realm of religion and religiosity. One of the most striking characteristic’s among religious people is their distaste for bluntness and directness. Everything has to be gently wrapped a couple of thousand times unto the point of complete meaninglessness.

    I totally accept this statement Norm, but must note that if by wrapping things up in gentle packages they become more 'user friendly' and subsequently eventually lead to a person becoming aquainted with the serious and dangerous failings of their chosen religion should it be discounted? A more aggressive approach may work for some, but would drive others in the opposite direction.

    I raised this post not to 'save souls' but to compare attitudes.

    Cheers -- HS

  • Kent
    Kent
    I totally accept this statement Norm, but must note that if by wrapping things up in gentle packages they become more 'user friendly' and subsequently eventually lead to a person becoming aquainted with the serious and dangerous failings of their chosen religion should it be discounted?

    Allow me to be blunt.

    If my grandmother had a dick, she would have been my grandfather!

    Note that Norm ALSO said: Everything has to be gently wrapped a couple of thousand times unto the point of complete meaninglessness

    IF complete meaninglessness is appealing to some people, Hillary, so be it. There will always be enough idiots around! That doesn't change Norm's message - which I fully support.

    Yakki Da

    Kent

    "The only difference between a fool and the JW legal department is that a fool might be sympathetic ."

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

  • Ranchette
    Ranchette

    There are some issues that must be handled bluntly.They rise to the level of emergency issues! There is no time for games or beating around the bush. Just spit it out and maybe just maybe someone can be saved the pain and suffering that others have experienced.Also there's room for both aproaches here.If someone comes on to strong then there's always someone here to present it in a softer manner.Between the two aproaches hopefully the message gets through.
    Ranchette

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi Larc,

    Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it very much.

    You also said:

    It can be a shattering experience when a person's total belief system collapses. I think we all know that, and collectively we possess the expertise here to help people through that trauma.

    It is indeed a shattering experience, one I might add I have gone through myself. I agree that in this place we do have all it takes to help people through anything related to such problems. That said I think that it would be far more productive if some people would understand that it is the diversity that makes this place so unique, and not try to press everything into some kind of "theocratic" form.

    Take care,

    Norm.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    I had been one who likes things "neatly wrapped", and presented oh-so-tactfully.

    In the 5 months I've been out here, reading Norm's posts, I find myself laughing, clapping and cheering! Hit 'em between the eyes Norm. You never unnecessarily offend, it's only facts!

    Such posts raise the level of discussion to "FACTS" and not 'personalities' and 'feelings'. Loving it!!

    GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
    Mark Twain (1835-1910)

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hullo HS,

    You said:

    I totally accept this statement Norm, but must note that if by wrapping things up in gentle packages they become more 'user friendly' and subsequently eventually lead to a person becoming aquainted with the serious and dangerous failings of their chosen religion should it be discounted? A more aggressive approach may work for some, but would drive others in the opposite direction.

    I am all for being civil, but I am not going to spend much time massageing someones frail ego, no matter how "user friendly" they might find it, while the evil empire in Brooklyn continue to excuse and protect child abusers. In the environment here on this board there is something for everyone. If people are so frail and sensitive that they can't read this board, I am afraid they should go back to the WT and continue their existence in la la land.

    Norm.

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi Ranchette,

    You said:

    There are some issues that must be handled bluntly.They rise to the level of emergency issues! There is no time for games or beating around the bush. Just spit it out and maybe just maybe someone can be saved the pain and suffering that others have experienced.Also there's room for both aproaches here.If someone comes on to strong then there's always someone here to present it in a softer manner.Between the two aproaches hopefully the message gets through.
    Ranchette

    Indeed there is. When I left the WTS I did not enjoy the immense and overwhelming volume, yes, mountain of evidence for the fact that the WTS is just another multinational religious con operation.

    I had to sit down and figure most of it out myself. Today all of this is easily available on the net. All it takes is the effort to find it read it and cross check the extremely plentiful references. All of this material didn't get there miraculously but where put there because many individuals like myself sat down and did the investigation and put our findings and thoughts into words. I would think that even the most timid and fearful "doubting Thomas" among the JW's are able to read and write. And they should be equally able to find this material.

    I agree with you that there is room for both approaches. If a JW lurker comes to this board and approch the people here with sincere querstions I am sure no one will in any way attack such an individual. But if he should appoach the baord in the usual arrogant JW way, it might be another story.

    Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

    Take care

    Norm

  • riz
    riz

    Amen.

    Norm, you rock.

    riz

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