by Norm 33 Replies latest jw friends
Hi Gopher,
You said:
Such posts raise the level of discussion to "FACTS" and not 'personalities' and 'feelings'. Loving it!!
Thank you very much Gopher, it is actually much easier to deal with facts that feelings. And the facts about the WTS is there for everyone to see, providing they really actually WANT to.
There will however always be quite a lot of people who isn't very interested in such facts. I haven't got time for such people.
Take care,
Norm.
Hi Norm,
My original post was not about forum behavoir but about attitudes and who we target with them. Somehow this issue has become muddied into a 'how do we treat JW posters' issue. If you read the original post it asks broad based and open questions on attitudes towards JW's by XJW's.
Anyway, thank you for your comments which make your own position clear, I understand where you are coming from and agree with some of your proclamations and disagree with others. The wonder of life, different views viewed from different views.
What you think of me as a person is of little consequence to me Norm, so I have to say that the tone of sarcasm, especially directed toward strangers, is perhaps a little wasted at this end and probably best saved for another day.
'I could never divide myself from any man upon the difference of opinion, or be angry with his judgement for not agreeing in that from which within a few days I might dissent myself'.. Thomas Browne
Have a good weekend - HS
(((((((((((norm)))))))))))
Thanks for another great post!
Growth and change are often painful,but facing the facts head-on and realistically,keeps the painful stage to a minimum.Integrating facts honestly is taking the first step towrds personal responsibility for one's life.In a nutshell,time to start growing up!
Most life-lessons are painful ones,but the rewards far outshine any temporary discomforts. The results are freedom,full autonomy,and an honest worldview. And then finding our bright sparkling place in that world. luv,T
GO NORM! I am all for the "blunt" approach. The WTBTS, years ago, was very blunt, "You're all gonna die!" blunt... That's why I have come to believe that the WTBTS should discontinue it's present move towards being more politically correct, and return to the past "bluntness".
You can't even imagine the reaction of a non-JW when they receive the pure, undiluted and unvarnished Watchtower message, with all the fat cut away.
Till I saw it the first time, I wouldn't have believed it. They jump up "that high" (gesture with hand) and all'z I can say is that I hope I never come face to face with a person at the door who has faced the "unvarnished" message.
But then... the doors where you can avoid this are getting fewer and fewer. HaHaHa LOL
Norm,
Could you please tell me how long you were a Witness and how long ago you left? Also were you born in the Witness religion or did you come in as a study?
Thanks very much,
IslandWoman
Hi Norm,
I greatly respect the selfless contibution you have made to my growth. But I have to admit I feared you, Farkel, Kent and JanH.
The average Jw, as far as I know in this part of the world, is a meek follower. They are not accustomed to "blunt" reality. That is their shortcoming, but our problem with which to deal. As members of an organization that claims to represent God they roll play as fearless defenders of truth, but are still accustomed to polite, "packaged" presentations.
If our objective is to destroy, than damn the politeness and let the words fly. But if our objective is to rescue, we defeat ourselves when we chase them away with blunt reality.
Jst2laws
Norm,
Something you wrote about the interpersonal side of this forum struck me. That is, if people come here looking for help, they are treated very kindly (lurkers please note this). I can think of several like that, Troubled being one of the latest.
However, if they come here with an arrogant, self centered attitude they are just looking for trouble. It is like going to a door where everyone knows everything you know about your religion and a whole lot more. At a door they might face one or two with such knowledge. Here, they are facing a hundred or more on any given day. I find it difficult to be civil with these folks, but I do my best. Usually, I question the weakest point of their assertions, and see where that takes me.
Hullo HS,
You said:
Hi Norm,
My original post was not about forum behavoir but about attitudes and who we target with them. Somehow this issue has become muddied into a 'how do we treat JW posters' issue. If you read the original post it asks broad based and open questions on attitudes towards JW's by XJW's.
I would guess that’s individual. Some blame the Watchtower Society leaders others both the leaders and the R&F. The Watchtower Society would of course be nothing without the R&F Witnesses, just like Hitler would have been nothing without the German people. Are the average Jehovah's Witness evil? No, absolutely not. An evil organization don’t have to consist of evil people to be a malevolent and harmful entity. All the organization require is discipline and loyalty. All it takes is for its members to “buy” the idea that the organization is more important than you yourself, you family and friends, that’s the basic recipe for disaster. Attitudes and “who we target with them” is of course also about how we treat Jehovah's Witness posters.
Anyway, thank you for your comments which make your own position clear, I understand where you are coming from and agree with some of your proclamations and disagree with others. The wonder of life, different views viewed from different views.
What you think of me as a person is of little consequence to me Norm, so I have to say that the tone of sarcasm, especially directed toward strangers, is perhaps a little wasted at this end and probably best saved for another day.
I do not have any specific thoughts about you as a person HS, I don’t know you yet. I am just debating with you, which is an excellent way of getting to know people, but it takes time. We will no doubt get to know each other better as time moves on.
Norm.
Hi Jst2laws,
You said:
Hi Norm,I greatly respect the selfless contibution you have made to my growth. But I have to admit I feared you, Farkel, Kent and JanH.
Well, I am at a loss to understand why you should have any fear of such obviously flawed human beings.
The average Jw, as far as I know in this part of the world, is a meek follower. They are not accustomed to "blunt" reality. That is their shortcoming, but our problem with which to deal. As members of an organization that claims to represent God they roll play as fearless defenders of truth, but are still accustomed to polite, "packaged" presentations.
Well, as far as I remember many Jehovah's Witnesses was really eagerly looking forward to the slaughter of all those pesky people who shut the doors in their faces. Many a Jehovah's Witness I knew waxed very eloquent on that subject. They didn’t spare much patience for their religious opponents when it came to ridiculing their religious beliefs. So I don’t think they are such frail flowers as you make them out to be. Of course it is a devastating shock when it dawns on a Witness that the “truth” is extremely far from true, but why they should fear those who provide the documentation for such facts, is beyond me.
If our objective is to destroy, than damn the politeness and let the words fly. But if our objective is to rescue, we defeat ourselves when we chase them away with blunt reality.
Jst2laws
My objective has been and still is to provide well documented information about the workings of the Watchtower Society. I know full well that such information has the power to destroy. But it destroy lies and deceit, and those are things that all decent human beings have a duty to destroy when aware of them. If people are chased away by facts because of the way the facts are presented, then they just use the presentation as an excuse to escape back to la la land. We of course know that the Witnesses are notorious for that. The Watchtower Society and the average Jehovah's Witness are obsessed with something they call “respect”. If you study the phenomenon in the Watchtower literature you will soon find out that whenever that word is used it ALWAYS talk about respect for the Watchtower and the Witnesses, it is NEVER about respect for non-Witnesses. Like with so many other things and the Watchtower Society it is a total one way street. That is one of the many reasons I have a hard time respecting anything or anyone coming from that organization.
This organization has managed to con millions of extremely ignorant people into believing that they are well informed and knowledgeable just because they read the Watchtower and Awake! It is quite a feat to make people to be actually proud of their ignorance even to the point that they flaunt it like profound knowledge. It takes a saint-like person to be calm and kind when you have such people showing up and arrogantly flaunt such stupidity.
Norm.
Norm,
During the many years since then I have discovered a lot of things about the whole realm of religion and religiosity. One of the most striking characteristic?s among religious people is their distaste for bluntness and directness. Everything has to be gently wrapped a couple of thousand times unto the point of complete meaninglessness.
I don't doubt your discovery as I have witnessed it myself. Knowing that is the case, wisdom leads the wise to use a different approach when addressing different people... speak Greek to Greeks, Spanish to Spaniards, etc. Doing otherwise defeats our purpose and those who might otherwise listen to us are likely to turn a deaf ear. When that happens, all loose.
tj
