I believe the bible is the word of god. I guess when someone has doubts anything can be disected into oblivion. I was thinking that perhaps the US was Babylon in the sense that we are the most materialistic country on the planet. We use the most resources, have the highest unsustainable debt. Basically, "eat now for tomorrow we may die". Given this is seems plausible that the U.S. in a sense is riding the back of other nations (beast) since they buy our debt, and sell us goods. The economy cannot continue in the manner it is. So it would seem plausible given the following A) It is the word of god for the last days B) The US seems to fit the bill.
Who really is Babylon the Great?
by sinis 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Star Moore
I agree with your logic.
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Star Moore
I agree with your logic.
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peacefulpete
I believe the bible is the word of god.
With a single line the whole necessity of seeking to understand the Bible in its cultural setting with intent to grasp the intent of the author evaporates.
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proplog2
It may have been the opinion of some early Christians that Rome was Babylon the Great but that is not an adequate explanation. They admittedly get into trouble when they try to explain the beast that she rides and which eventually destroys Babylon the Great.
It is clear that Babylon the Great represents some political entity. Watchtower writers have gotten way off the mark with their construct of a "world empire of false religion". At first they fell for the erroneous protestant notion that the harlot was the Roman Catholic Church. Later they changed that to include all false religion. To prove that idea they used a process of elimination argument which is very easy to disprove. They claim that since she has intercourse with all the nations of the earth she can't be a political entity. This claim is false because it ignores the same relationship Tyre & Ninevah are said to have with all the nations of the earth. The Watchtower develops this process of elimination argument by saying that religion is absent from the mourning of Babylon the Great. This is circular reasoning that assumes that religion was part of the scene in the first place.
On the other hand the preterist arguments don't eliminate the possibility of a Babylon the Great on earth today. In fact there is an entity that fits the description of Babylon the Great. The richest entity that has ever existed is the United States. In case you haven't paid much attention to the world situation most of the nations on earth resent the mono-polar world dominated by the USA.
The Wild Beast the USA is trying to ride is the seventh manifestation of the series of empires that started with Egypt. 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon 4. Persia 5. Greece 6. Rome 7. Russia.
Russia??
Yes. Russia became the seventh not the Anglo/American. Westerners don't understand the significance of Moscow as the third Rome. The west tends to think of the Roman empire as centered on the City of Rome. The center of gravity of the Roman empire was really in the east/Levant. Constantinople fell much later and the Russians proudly declared themselves the inheritors of the Roman Empire.
Revelation says one of the heads of the beast (7th most likely) appeared as though slaughtered to death. But its death stroke got healed and it became an eighth king. Is it just coincidental that the USSR died in 1991 but is now beginning to show it's old menacing behavior. The USA keeps pushing NATO (a military alliance) right up to Russia's front door. The Kings who have not received a kingdom (former soviet republics) are gradually forming alliances with Russia against the USA. True Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova have recently turned toward the West but that is all the more reason the remaining tyrants are worried that the price they may have to pay for befriending the USA is that they will be removed in some kind of "color" revolution.
The "bomb" that will explode in the USA will be a Russian effort to distract the USA from its plans in the Caucasus. The Moslems will be convenient scapegoats. It will be the Russians who benefit.
Cui Bono? Who Benefits... solves the crime.
The Preterists have it wrong. Tim Lahaye (Left Behind Author) has it WRONG. The Watchtower has it REALLY WRONG. I am positive I have it right. -
proplog2
This is the short argument against the Watchtower interpretation of Babylon the Great. (BTG)
1.) The Watchtower claims that Babylon the Great is the World Empire of False Religion (WEFR). Since the Bible never specifically says that BTG is a religious entity this is an extraordinary claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence. (Similar to the Trinity situation. Since the word Trinity is not used in the Bible then the doctrine would have to be extraordinarily explicit.) Not only is Babylon The Great not referred to as a religious entity the 18th chapter of Revelation is lacking even ordinary religious identifiers ie. altars, priests, sacrifice, idols, incense etc.
2.) The Watchtower uses a process of elimination argument as a key to uncovering the mystery of BTG's identity. Since the Kings of the Earth committed fornication with Babylon the Great the claim is advanced that she can't be a political entity. And since the Ship Captains and Traveling Merchants are mourning her destruction she can't be big business. While it is clearly the case that she is NOT of the class represented by Traveling Merchants it is not self-evident that she can't be of the same class represented by the Kings of the Earth. She is not of the same set as those with whom she has intercourse but she can be of the same class. As an example consider Michael the Archangel. Michael is in the same class as Seraphs and Cherubs. However, Michael, as the only Archangel, is in a separate set of the class called "angels". So Babylon the Great can be a political entity the same as all those with whom she fornicates. The thing that the Kings of the Earth have in common is that they have all fornicated with the entity identified as BTG. She in turn is in a set by herself. She is the only one that has fornicated with all the kings of the earth and she is also the only one who has an empire over all the kings of the earth.
This point becomes clearer when we read of the fornication of Tyre, clearly a political entity. Isaiah 23:17
"and she [Tyre] must ... commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth."
4.) The spiritistic activities of BTG are believed by the Watchtower to be an absolute certification of the identity of BTG as a religious entity. However, in the case of Ninevah we have an example of a political whore described as a sorceress: Nahum 3:4
"owing to the abundance of prostitution...a mistress of sorceries...ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries."
5.) Finally, the Watchtower makes remarks about how rich WEFR is. In the Babylon the Great book even referring to WEFR as "doubtless...the richest organization on earth today. There is no need to even ask for proof of this absurd conclusion. It is worse than naive it clearly void of any kind of thought. Religion, typically accounts for slightly less than 1% of the worlds economic activity. Hardly enough to cause wailing on the part of Ship Captains and Traveling merchants. What if you totaled up all the real property of the Worlds Religions. Then what? Should they sell it and tell people to hold onto their 1% contributions for a few years. Religion just isn't a big economic factor. If the Watchtower has some evidence to show that WEFR is a BIG enough factor to cause the Traveling Merchants and Ship Captains to mourn they haven't shared it with their readers.
6.) If the end is imminent then Babylon the Great should be at its peak. Revelation 18:7,8
"For in her heart she keeps saying, I sit a queen... that is why in one day her plagues will come."
Only a very rich political entity with a rate of consumption that would enrich all the worlds traveling merchants and ship captains could fit the role of BTG. Since we are "supposed" to be close to the end and since the USA is simultaneously the richest and most powerful entity on Earth, - exercising hegemony over all the kingdoms of the earth - then it is clear that we had better be watching for the time when God's people must literally flee the geographical territory of the USA/BTG.
So,it really isn't very complicated. JW's no doubt are emotionally attached to this Watchtower teaching in the same way some are attached to the Trinity. I know that to believe that BTG is the USA would require a major overhaul of Watchtower prophesy. I've done most of the work already. It can be proven:
Slaughtered head of beast at Rev 13 is USSR.
The two horned beast is a closer look at the revived head of the beast.
The Scarlet colored beast is not the UN but another look at the beast of Rev 13. It was, Is not (received deathstroke), yet IS (deathstroke healed)
The disgusting thing that causes desolation is not UN
The little Horn in Daniel is not the Anglo American world power but is the USSR.
The feet of clay and Iron is the USSR with its nationalities problem.
The successor to the Roman Empire is the Third Rome = Moscow or Russia and not Britain.
The King of the South is never heard from after the King of the North floods over because The USA/BTG is destroyed. -
sinis
It may have been the opinion of some early Christians that Rome was Babylon the Great but that is not an adequate explanation. They admittedly get into trouble when they try to explain the beast that she rides and which eventually destroys Babylon the Great.
It is clear that Babylon the Great represents some political entity. Watchtower writers have gotten way off the mark with their construct of a "world empire of false religion". At first they fell for the erroneous protestant notion that the harlot was the Roman Catholic Church. Later they changed that to include all false religion. To prove that idea they used a process of elimination argument which is very easy to disprove. They claim that since she has intercourse with all the nations of the earth she can't be a political entity. This claim is false because it ignores the same relationship Tyre & Ninevah are said to have with all the nations of the earth. The Watchtower develops this process of elimination argument by saying that religion is absent from the mourning of Babylon the Great. This is circular reasoning that assumes that religion was part of the scene in the first place.
On the other hand the preterist arguments don't eliminate the possibility of a Babylon the Great on earth today. In fact there is an entity that fits the description of Babylon the Great. The richest entity that has ever existed is the United States. In case you haven't paid much attention to the world situation most of the nations on earth resent the mono-polar world dominated by the USA.
The Wild Beast the USA is trying to ride is the seventh manifestation of the series of empires that started with Egypt. 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon 4. Persia 5. Greece 6. Rome 7. Russia.
Russia??
Yes. Russia became the seventh not the Anglo/American. Westerners don't understand the significance of Moscow as the third Rome. The west tends to think of the Roman empire as centered on the City of Rome. The center of gravity of the Roman empire was really in the east/Levant. Constantinople fell much later and the Russians proudly declared themselves the inheritors of the Roman Empire.
Revelation says one of the heads of the beast (7th most likely) appeared as though slaughtered to death. But its death stroke got healed and it became an eighth king. Is it just coincidental that the USSR died in 1991 but is now beginning to show it's old menacing behavior. The USA keeps pushing NATO (a military alliance) right up to Russia's front door. The Kings who have not received a kingdom (former soviet republics) are gradually forming alliances with Russia against the USA. True Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova have recently turned toward the West but that is all the more reason the remaining tyrants are worried that the price they may have to pay for befriending the USA is that they will be removed in some kind of "color" revolution.
The "bomb" that will explode in the USA will be a Russian effort to distract the USA from its plans in the Caucasus. The Moslems will be convenient scapegoats. It will be the Russians who benefit.
Cui Bono? Who Benefits... solves the crime.
The Preterists have it wrong. Tim Lahaye (Left Behind Author) has it WRONG. The Watchtower has it REALLY WRONG. I am positive I have it right.Wow! Thanks, that was a fresh look at things. Very understandable and plausible.
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proplog2
Sinnis:
I first realized that the USA was Babylon the Great back in 1980. The first crack in the structure was that World Trade didn't seem to be dependent on Religion. But I had trouble figuring out what the Wild Beast was that eventually destroys Babylon The Great. I struggled with the Watchtower interpretation that the seventh head was the anglo american world power that was wounded in First World War. Of course the events that have occurred since the late 1980's has clarified some things.
The Soviet Union completely disappeared in December 1991. This was a real death of an empire unlike the difficulties the Anglo American power suffered in World War I. The Watchtower even concluded that there no longer was a King of the North. I knew that this was significant. I have been watching events unfold in Russia ever since. The United States has tried to ride the Russian beast by moving NATO right up to its front door. The Harvard economists that advised Yeltsin ruined an orderly transition from central control of the economy to a market economy. Everyone thought they could ignore Russia because it was on its way to being a nice Demo(k)ratic Kapitalist Lamb. Under Putin it is clear that "freedom" and "democracy" are not high priorities.
The stage is set for the rest of the fullfilment of Revelation
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jgnat
Proplog, I will always remember the frailty of your certainty, as it was dashed once before. No matter how neatly the puzzle seems to fit, I predict again that you are wrong. The United States is not Babylon the Great.
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sinis
Is there a parallel between Daniel's King of the South and North and Revelation (woman sitting on the back of the beast)? Are the two accounts really the same thing?