I do have to admitt that Russia is becoming a key player again. There is internal strife at the moment and thoughts of going back to a dictator. Russia is supplying arms at an extraordinary rate (currently) to middle eastern and third world countries. That and the fact that it seems many of the nations today (russia and china for example) are starting to come together in a resource alliance. Countries you would not have seen in the past are now joining hands. It seems that the US, in most cases, is not included in these alliances. Without saying too much I know for a fact that there is some scary shit coming down the pipe and many in higher places are very worried.
Who really is Babylon the Great?
by sinis 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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proplog2
Sinis:
There is a strong parallel between Daniel & Revelation. The final conflict according to Daniel is between the King of the North and the King of the South. The showdown in Revelation is between a beast that is killed and resurrected and a Harlot that exercises hegemony over the earth and makes all those in the shipping business rich. The final struggle in Daniel leaves the King of the North as the winner only to be brought down by Michael the Great Prince.
Revelation describes the final battle AFTER the destruction of Babylon The Great at Rev. 19:19,20
"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. And the wild beast was caught and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs... While still alive they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur." Daniel describes this scene also: Dan. 7:11 "I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking. I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire."
So is it just coincidental that we have homologues for these entitites today?
Daniel: King of the North destroys King of the South. King of the South seems to be in a position to push at the king of the North. The pushing escalates to the point where the King of the North acts to bring an end to the Souths provocations.
Revelation: Harlot sits on top of the wild beast. She attempts to ride it - thus control it. The beast gets tired of that and turns on her. Destroys her so that she goes up in smoke.
You don't have to explain everything that leads up to the climax. You merely have to look at the end and work your way back.
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Star Moore
Proplog...I was thinking the last King of the north is Daniel 11 was the islamic extremist...but are you saying it's Russia.? Could it be the islamic extremist, al qaida. ? The beast that eats up the harlot..? Russia too? What do you think Sinis?
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Narkissos
... a darkness shining in brightness which brightness could not comprehend.
James Joyce, Ulysses.
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proplog2
Star:
The choice has to fit. Terrorists are not governments. At best they may be sponsored by governements. You can't just pick the latest most popular ogre. They change from week to week. Iraq, Iran, North Korea, China, Islam have all been suggested as King of the North. You have to find the most significant fit.
Russia is the largest country in the World. 20% of its territory is north of the arctic circle.
Canada is the second largest country in the world. It also is north but it has very little ability to carry on an offensive war. It has no nuclear weapons.
North Korea is North of South Korea but it is too small to merit title King of Anything. It's nuclear arsenal is at most 10 weapons.
Russia on the other hand has over 7,000 active nuclear weapons and a stockpile of close to 16,000.
The USA has about 5,000 active nuclear weapons and a stockpile of around 10,000
Both the USA and Russia still have weapons aimed at each other and are on constant alert for possible attack. Both countries carry on war games with the other country as the target.
The key word in interpreting is "significance". You want to look for a "best fit".
Both Revelation and Daniel describe the end scene as involving two political entities. One is located in the North and the other is located South. The Southern entity tries to dominate the Northern entity by "pushing". Revelation describes the relationship between these two as a very rich entity dominating a beast like entity by "riding" it. The beast like entity has some fragility to it because it experiences a sword stroke that kills it - however it comes back from its death-like state. In both Revelation and Daniel the entity that seems to have the upper hand in the struggle is the one that ends up destroyed.
What are the odds here?
The odds for any event hapening are at best 50% If they are greater or less than that then you have to have some knowledge of the likelihood of an event happening. So basically any event can happen or NOT happen. You have a 25% chance of predicting any two events accurately. If you take just the events listed above you have 6 accurate predictions. You have a .0078 chance of doing that. In other words the Bible is not just a matter of good guessing. Actually I figure there are around 10 predictions about the end time scenario that are accurate.
Now just because a book accurately predicts events doesn't mean that it has to have the origin it claims. If someone has a power that is out of the range of human ability it only means that they are not human. It doesn't mean that they are God. It doesn't mean that they can't lie about their nature.
You may notice that there is a tendency for many to ridicule these interpretations. They may want to come up with an alternative besides just saying it was all fullfilled two thousand years ago. Obviously the key events connected to those interpretations never materialized - Armageddon, Resurrection, Christs Visible Coming.
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Narkissos
You may notice that there is a tendency for many to ridicule these interpretations. They may want to come up with an alternative besides just saying it was all fullfilled two thousand years ago. Obviously the key events connected to those interpretations never materialized - Armageddon, Resurrection, Christs Visible Coming.
If you are alluding to my post it was actually less "ridicule" than real amazement at the endless flow of futuristic interpretations which such texts as Daniel or Revelation are still raising -- in spite of any amount of "rational" (i.e., historically contextual) exegesis. It points to an obscure desire to have history written or ciphered somewhere, for only a few "wise" to understand. The light scholarly exegesis casts on the text, by illuminating its essential obscurity, of necessity misses it.
Btw, I did not say "it was all fulfilled". I said "it was not fulfilled"... and likely never will be. But "likely" leaves plenty of room for the "wisdom" of present and future apocalypticists, till Kingdom comes.
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jgnat
Remember this, proplog2?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/41342/5.ashx
I dislike confident, misplaced bible prophecy. Especially if those interpretations lead to rash behavior. You have no cause to be so confident in your interpretation. Your belief is remarkably persistent. Perhaps these musings provide a necessary comfort?
Star Moore, what events would have to happen for you to be persuaded that your interpretation were false?
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Star Moore
Truthfully, Jgnat, I am not sure who Babylon the Great is..just seems like US...And the beast she's riding on.. Not sure either. But thinking Al qaida......The only thing I was seeming sure about was the last king of the North as being Al qaida....
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jgnat
I think one advantage of a good course in logic or philosophy is distinguishing between what is sure and what is speculation. Truth be told, I haven't taken such a course, but I was on the debating team in school. I learned quickly, by arguing both sides of an argument, that all conclusions have flaws that must be relentlessly pursued. Especially if truth is important to you.
The book of Revelation is a poor replacement for life. The most true things are what you can touch, see and feel. Sharing cookies with an elderly neighbour. Taking a dog for a walk. Savouring a hot beverage on a cold day. Sipping a cold Pepsi on a hot day. Looking deeply in to the eyes of a baby.
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heathen
proplog --- I think you are forgetting the main point on why the WTBTS says EOFR is BTG ., , The passage after it's destroyed that states , " never again will the voice of a bride groom and bride be heard in her again " , revelation 18:23 also I think the spiritistic practices are another give away . Myself I really think it points to the catholic church because they are big with the idolotry and bowing before them , the belief and use of saints as mediators is spiritism . I don't think there is another religion that fits the bill more than the catholic church since the vatican is a member of the UN . However I think most other "christian" religions would point to the UN as mans hope for peace on earth which is blaspheme .
On the point of king of north and south I would argue that the king of north is the US and british alliance or lamb beast with the 666 mark on it . I don't know where the WTBTS gets off with the changing roles stuff but seems like a waste of time when it is clearly an end time prophesy . The king of north has many ships that invade the mid east as we've seen here with the gulf war also it is the victor and is destroyed by the incoming kingdom much like the lamb beast in revelation .