Who really is Babylon the Great? (page 2)

sinis

Also - “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more—cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives. The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls’” (Revelation 18:11-16).

If it were False Religion, how have the merchants become rish from "her"? It would seem vast material consumption is going on. Was not purple the color of kingship in Jesus day?

Narkissos

So who is the beast that destroyed Rome?

First of all: this did not happen.

That's what the writer/editor expected to happen. Soon. Even the so-called "fall of Rome" in 476 AD is far out of scope, not to mention later events.

For once he made a true "prophecy" in the sense of futuristic prediction (not a prophecy "ex eventu"), and, as almost ever happens in that case, it failed.

Now his exact scenario is a bit confused, probably due to the merging of several sources. On the one hand he ascribes the ruin of Rome to the beast which he partly identifies to the coming back of a past evil emperor (an adaptation of the very common Nero redivivus myth), on the other hand he ascribes it to the revolt of vassal kings (according to one interpretation of the 10 horns, v. 15-18).

heathen

OK , I won't tell you but that sounds like it sinnis. The WTBTS believes that babylon fell whenever they arrived on the scene and today after countless false prophesy still say that .LOL If we do look today the catholic church is closing down and selling off properties to settle pedophile lawsuits . Sounds like the beast is taking a few bites out of the whore to me . The moslems seem to be taking over as well. Most nations in the UN are moslem . Only time will tell on that one.

ColdRedRain

Babylon the great was probably an enemy to John. Most "spiritual" doomsday "predictions" are nothing more than thinly veiled jabs at political or business enemies of the writer.

Leolaia

The author of Revelation himself identifies what Babylon the Great is:

"The woman you saw is (estin) the great city that rules over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18).

Note the present tense. If it wasn't clear already that Babylon = Rome, the author also mentions other unmistakable clues.... a city sitting on seven hills (can only be Rome), a city that is the center of international trade (can only be Rome), including the trade of slaves (again...Rome), and is depicted in a manner strkingly similar to how the patron goddess Roma was depicted in Roman art, as sitting on the seven hills of Rome. The author here parodies this religious depiction as a harlot (she is a harlot because of her trade with the kings of the earth) sitting on a seven-headed beast (seven heads = seven hills in 17:9). The Beast, on the other hand, is not the city but its leadership...its heads represents a succession of seven kings, i.e. emperors (in a double application), while the Beast is itself the eighth king who is "one of the seven"...this is alluding to the Nero redivivus myth which claimed that Nero would return to finish destroying the city (remember that he was blamed for starting the fire that destroyed much of Rome). The Nero redivivus myth was the premier urban legend in the 70s-90s (reported widely by Roman historians and appearing in other Jewish/Christian texts), and is also alluded to elsewhere in Revelation (cf. 13:3, 13:12, which refers to the slain Beast, i.e. slain Nero, coming back to life). The worship of the Beast in ch. 13 is also widely thought to be a reference to the Emperor cult and the prescribed worship of Caesar.

For a more thorough discussion of these matters, see my post below:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/86994/1446479/post.ashx#1446479

Star Moore

Sinus.....I agree with you, I think it is the US too....If it was the World Empire of False Religion, then we'd all have to be afraid of the imperfect religions...they are all imperfect and God knows that..And we are all imperfect. But he loves us for our effort in life in truth and love.. not the religion we are in.

peacefulpete

Its ok to debate and disagree but it only looks willfully ignorant to just ignore a rational, well argued explanation. Star Moore , oh forget it............

sinis

The author of Revelation himself identifies what Babylon the Great is:
"The woman you saw is (estin) the great city that rules over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18).
Note the present tense. If it wasn't clear already that Babylon = Rome, the author also mentions other unmistakable clues.... a city sitting on seven hills (can only be Rome), a city that is the center of international trade (can only be Rome), including the trade of slaves (again...Rome), and is depicted in a manner strkingly similar to how the patron goddess Roma was depicted in Roman art, as sitting on the seven hills of Rome. The author here parodies this religious depiction as a harlot (she is a harlot because of her trade with the kings of the earth) sitting on a seven-headed beast (seven heads = seven hills in 17:9). The Beast, on the other hand, is not the city but its leadership...its heads represents a succession of seven kings, i.e. emperors (in a double application), while the Beast is itself the eighth king who is "one of the seven"...this is alluding to the Nero redivivus myth which claimed that Nero would return to finish destroying the city (remember that he was blamed for starting the fire that destroyed much of Rome). The Nero redivivus myth was the premier urban legend in the 70s-90s (reported widely by Roman historians and appearing in other Jewish/Christian texts), and is also alluded to elsewhere in Revelation (cf. 13:3, 13:12, which refers to the slain Beast, i.e. slain Nero, coming back to life). The worship of the Beast in ch. 13 is also widely thought to be a reference to the Emperor cult and the prescribed worship of Caesar.
For a more thorough discussion of these matters, see my post below:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/86994/1446479/post.ashx#1446479

Revelation 17:9 does not say seven "hills" but seven "mountains" in the greek interlinear. I see where you are coming from though. As one poster said I guess time will tell. It is interesting though whne you get different ideas. Thanks.

Leolaia

Revelation 17:9 does not say seven "hills" but seven "mountains" in the greek interlinear.

The Greek term can refer to both "hills" and "mountains". Similarly, the Seven Hills of Rome were usually called the Septimontium in Latin, or more literally "seven mountains", from mons "mountain". See Varro, Suetonius, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Quirinal, Livy, Tibullus, and many others. Yet others, such as Horace, referred to them as the seven colles "hills", using the word collis "hill". Revelation actually is closer to the usual idiom of referring to Rome's seven hills...

jgnat

Thank you, Leolaia, for clearing that up. Now I'm going to have to bury my candidate, Las Vegas.

Who really is Babylon the Great?

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