Is baptism necessary?

by ozziepost 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gumby
    gumby
    Gumby: Sadly......according to Watchtower philosophy, ol' John has to pick apples, build houses, and sit under a fig tree for the rest of his life right here on earth. At least the poor old bastard won't hafta eat Locusts and honey and wear Sonny and Cher clothes anymore..... and he can have fruit salad coming out his arse.

    W T F ???? Sorry you lost me on that one. Let me roll up a fat one to get on your wavelength.

    steve

    Steve....ya damn pothead........don't light that up till I get over there!!!

    About John. Witnesses do not believe John will go to Heaven. John was killed BEFORE Jesus death and before Jesus offered his sacrifice to god. They believe that ALL others AFTER John ( those from Pentecost on and up to 1935) would recieve the heavenly reward.....but not John the baptist.

    Gumby........*drives to Steves house real fast for some "peace pipe"*

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    OK, let me rephrase.

    Why was John Baptising people?

    steve

  • GodisRight
    GodisRight

    GiR,

    You must read further. In Revelation 20 (as it stands) there is no "testing by Satan" for the resurrected, just judgement for their past actions. Moreover, they are resurrected after Satan is done with. After heavens and earth disappear. Before new heavens and a new earth appear. Between two worlds so to say.
    When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    " 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)" [The second resurrection starts as soon at the thousands years are up]

    6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. [Notice that only blessed and holy persons have part in this resurrection. If there is a first resurrection, then there must be a second resurrection.]

    This is the test------> 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be be released from his prison[Only Satan? What about fallen angels and other bad persons? See verse rev 20:5] 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.[Who is Satan deceiving on the earth if those part of the first resurrection are in heaven and the second resurrection takes place after he is done away with? Furthermore, what about people who died without knowledge of God, but did bad things? Are they condemed forever to the lake of fire without a chance to prove their loyalty to God? What about people who were born blind and deaf? What about babies and children who died under the age of 10? What kind of judgement could be given in there case? Why was Satan released and allow to decieve people on the earth again?]

    They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [Who is them?] 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.[Notice that the judgement for "they" or "them" is PAST TENSE. "They" or "them" have already been judged! ]

    Is this the second resurrection?------> 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. [What does Jesus say?]

    John 5:28-29

    28 "Do not marvel at this; for ( A ) an hour is coming, in which ( B ) all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; ( C ) those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment

    The resurrection takes place before the judgement. The resurrection of judgment is compared to the resurrection of life. So these are literal resurrections. Does it make sense to you that a bad person is bought back to life so that God can tell him he will be thrown into the lake of fire without being given a second chance? Does that make sense? Again, what about people who never has chance to do the right thing? Give it some throught.

    4 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.[ As in those who were decieved by Satan after his release? Are people thrown into the lake of fire after the judgement? Once again, PAST TENSE! The judgement was taking place during the time Satan was released from his prison and decieving people on the earth. You should also pay attention to the fact that those part of the first resurrection will be doing the judging Rev 20:4 ]

    I have done the best I can to explain my position here.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    GiR:

    What do you understand by the expression "apocalyptic language" ?

  • GodisRight
    GodisRight
    Excellent, Nark. Isn't it a shame the JW's are brainwashed into picking and choosing scriptures instead of reading them in their context.

    Maybe GIR will take the time to research the second death and the first resurrection using other venues than the WACKTOWER publications.

    Honesty, I find it insulting that you would call me a JW. The irony here is that Jehovah Witnesses would agree with you and Nark. I do not read the watch tower magazines any more. I don't know where you are getting all this stuff from. I don't know what gave you idea that I am an active JW or that I hold on to their teachings? I believe all Christians go to heaven and I don't believe in earthly paradise during the millenium. I don't believe people will have eternal life during that period.

    I don't see how anyone can call me a JW unless they speaking out of contempt for my views.

  • GodisRight
    GodisRight
    GiR:


    What do you understand by the expression "apocalyptic language" ?



    What must be understood is biblical expression. Generalism, vagueness, and events in unsequential order.

    People ask questions like where did Cain get his wife? They never understand that the bible is very generalistic and sometimes it's just vague. The bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve had daughters before Cain had a wife, but the bible did not say that they didn't have daughters either! The bible just leaves out the details sometime. Which is understandable because the bible is thousands of years old and if it recorded every little detail, it would be over a hundred thousands pages long.

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Does anyone know why John was Baptising people in the first place?

    steve

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    People ask questions like where did Cain get his wife?

    So you understand Genesis to be apocalyptic?

  • GodisRight
    GodisRight
    So you understand Genesis to be apocalyptic?

    Only to people who are oblivious to the ancient culture and ways of the people by which the bible is written. As with other things in life, the bible should be approached from diffrent perspectives. People should try to look at the scriptures from God's, the prophets, or the people of ancient Israel point of view. People selfishly only see things from their own perspective.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    GiR,

    I understand that your stance differs from the WT's. Mine too (very much so).

    A few generic remarks:

    I don't postulate that John 5:28f (which btw I hold to be a late addition into the Gospel of John, against its general interpretation of resurrection as the present and eternal spiritual experience of the believer, cf. 21ff; 11:25f) implies exactly the same scenario as Revelation 20.

    I also think that the exact scenario of Revelation is unclear, because the book is a combination of several apocalyptic sources. In particular, the general slaughter of chapter 19 and the millenium of chapter 20 did not belong together, and their merging in the extant text raises the question of whom are the "first resurrected" ruling over during the thousand years.

    I'll come back to your specific questions when I have a little more time.

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