Does Genesis Teach a Local Flood?

by JanH 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • Francois
    Francois

    I think there can be two approaches to the present question. One approach is of the scholarly type, attempting to nail down various corners of the flood story with the left brain, with logic, facts, reason, all in the service of incontrovertible findings - sort of like proving a theorem in geometry. This may be possible at some time in the future when more evidence is provided by anthropology, palentology, geology, and/or other branches of reductionist science. Right now, this proof via inference seems as good as we're likely to get using this approach.

    Another approach is that of the right brain; of intuition, or perhaps just common sense. And I'd like to present some of that thinking now for your entertainment if nothing else.

    Consider that at the time we're discussing, the population of the earth was very thin. Most civilizations, such as they were, were riverine. Now Noah, who had lived for a long time on the banks of his river, noticed that the level of the annual innundations fluctuated greatly. Sometimes the water went up very high; other times, not so high.

    For whatever reason, Noah decided that all the signs and portents (and perhaps a whisper in his ear from Jehovah, weather god par excellence) indicated that in a few short seasons, the river was really going to come up very, very high - high enough in fact that his farm and his family were going to have a hard time surviving. (How long can you tread water?).

    Having sufficient time to take preventative action if he started now, Noah proceeds to build a very large boat in which he can house his household, his animals, food enough for all for the relatively short while such will be required.

    His neighbors, not exactly as prescient as Noah, make a joke out of him, but undaunted, he doggedly continues with his boat, ark, whatever.

    When the time comes, Noah places his folks and his flocks and his foods on his boat, closes up the doors and sure enough, the annual innundation of the river this time is way, way higher than it had ever been. But Noah and his own are safe, snug, and fed in his boat while they wait for the river to recede. Of course, many of his neighbors drown in the flood (remember the Missouri/Mississippi flood of several years ago? And these people were protected by dykes, and all sorts of constructions by the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers (noticably lacking in Noah's time).

    Well, the flood recedes, Noah's family, flock, and stuff are preserved and his wisdom is celebrated in song and legend for the remainder of life on this planet - at least by bible-believing, right-thinking, christians.

    And any of you who have played "gossip," that game where twenty kids line up and a statement is passed from the first to the last child with the end result that the statement that comes out does not even resemble the statement that went in will recognize what happened next.

    Noah's little feat of prescience was turned into an event of world-wide significance: a world-wide flood, complete with this one sage guy who was wise enough to keep an eye on the river stages all his life - since he lived right there on it.

    But the story! Well, the story. Passed on from generation to generation. Generations that left the area eventually and spread all over the world, taking their oral histories of those times with them. Taking them, for instance, to the outback of Australia where there is a tradition, oral of course, of a world-wide flood.

    And naturally, it's preserved in the Judeo-Christian tradition. And in all sorts of other places.

    And it's really just a story of one guy who kept his eye out on the river he lived next to and did what any sane guy would do when he figured out that the river next year was really gonna come a frog strangler.

    Now I know this story won't appeal too much to the left-brain types. Too simple. Makes too much sense. Doesn't require partial differential equations to solve.

    Remember Occam?

    Francois

  • JanH
    JanH

    Francois,

    Your application of the "right side/left side" dichotomy may be a nice rhetorical ploy, but I really wonder how you think it has any bearing on the facts. To me it merely seems to serve as a cover-all excuse to not deal with inconvenient facts. Any counter-arguments to your armchair ideas you can simply discount as the work of "left-brain types", thus sparing you the work of having to actually deal with the evidence and the facts rationally. This is not common sense. Perhaps common, but very much non-sense.

    I will for the sake of argument assume you agree with me that the objective world exists. If that is the case, the it is either the truth that there once was a flood, a Noah and an ark, or there wasn't (obviously, there have been floods. But Genesis describes much more than flooding). If you come to the right conclusion with your "left side of the brain", then this remain correct also when you employ the "right side."

    I mentioned inconvenient facts. One of these facts are that to make a boat of even enough magnitude to support eight people and some livestock in rough flood waters, is a quite impressive feat that probably no civilization on Earth could have achieved back then, and far less a farmer who had to dedicate his hard work to keeping his family alive from day to day. You grossly underestimate the know-how, material insights and skills required to build such a vessel. Add to that the problems of keeping any vessel afloat in thundering waters (violent flooding in river areas necessarily flushes everything downstream, and fast!), and we see that your scenario is worse than infeasible.

    Too much left side of brain for you?

    Well, as someone who was born and raised close to the ocean, I can assure you that your brand of "right side of brain" thinking can easily get you drowned. You need a whole brain, and historians, like sea men, are generally very good at both "types of thinking".

    Besides the boat scenario, you do have good points. Yes, somehow flood legends developed. They may have been based on a real flooding disaster, or it may be pure fiction. This we cannot know, that is true. The game of "gossip" doesn't lend itself to reliably reconstruct the original story from the legendary forms, unfortunately.

    What we can know is that nothing even remotely resembling the flood story in Genesis ever took place. A flood, perhaps. A person escaping? No doubt many did, if there was a flood. But there certainly was no boat involved.

    Remember Occam?
    Indeed. However, we are dealing with a story not at all compatible with facts (the flood legend in Genesis). So the local flood scenario is rejected even before we can apply Occam.

    I think anti-intellectuallism is indistinguishable from mental laziness and the desire to not give up precious fantasies for facts.

    - Jan
    --
    "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets

  • patio34
    patio34

    JanH,

    Well said!!

    Pat

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Oh! Give a break guys. Noah's flood was a global flood.

  • anewperson
    anewperson

    If the satellite shows wooden beams in a rib-pattern for a ship sitting on top of Ararat, it will matter a great deal. And if not, it will still matter a great deal.

    In the past 1-2 years it's been shown that many of our largest domesticated animals orginated in Turkey. Also some grains. Someone asked why the need to take in land animals if the flood was localized. If these were the only domesticated cattle etc, then that necessity is readily explained.

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    If it was a local flood then why did Noah put so many types of animals in it. Answer: So they can populate the earth.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas
    If the satellite shows wooden beams in a rib-pattern for a ship sitting on top of Ararat, it will matter a great deal.

    If the satellite photos show something like you describe we'll know it's a fraud. They might as well tell us the Queen Mary has been found up there.

  • larc
    larc

    I seems to me that probably every primitive, preliterate tribe on earth experienced a major flood at least once, and possibly many times in their history. So, one of the ancients had the foresight to build a large raft and saved his family and a few domesticated animals. Over the generations the story gets bigger and more magnificant. God enters into the story and the raft takes on proportions of a freighter. By the time writing comes along, we have a whale of a story. That's how I think it may have happened.

    I have not gone back to reread in detail the comments of Francois and JanH, but I think both of their accounts have plausable ideas in them.

    I am curious if anyone knows if the American Inians have such a tale in their oral traditions.

  • anewperson
    anewperson

    No, Nathan, if the photos show a boat keel, say, then there will be renewed interest in trying to gain Turkish permission to explore the site on foot. This is a bona fide satellite mission. Lets all keep our minds open to whatever the scientists finally say, whether it upholds or demolishes our own current views.

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    anew,

    do you believe the ark looked like the 1960s movie ark, or as the ark was described in the Bible (and as portrayed by Watchtower artists)?

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