U.N. Scandal Clarfications Please.

by lowden 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • dozy
    dozy

    Did the “relationship” with the UN infringe JW “neutrality” with worldly governments?

    (1) The NGO agreement was to support the principles of the UN charter and its work, but ONLY as defined as being “in accordance with” the WTS’ own “aims and purposes.

    The UN itself informs the NGOs that "association of NGOs with the DPI DOES NOT CONSTITUTE THEIR INCORPORATION INTO THE UNITED NATIONS SYSTEM!” (Cf. ECOSOC Resolution 1296; Part II,12.) The position of the NGO’s is only consultative; it only aids and promotes the UN’s gaining it’s objective in that the NGO advises and informs in areas which are of concern to the NGO.

    (2) God is going to use the UN to destroy false religion so why shouldn’t JWs use it to promote religious freedom and human rights.. Jws can promote it’s “ideals” without promoting it as a replacement for God’s Kingdom, which is what the religions of many apostates have blasphemously done.

    (3) The Society has stated: “Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs.”

    Was the “library excuse” a lie as some apostates have claimed?

    example: The Dag Hammarskjöld Library is a special library . . . permission to use the Library is also given for short periods of time to advanced_level researchers who have found that materials required to complete their research are UNAVAILABLE AT DEPOSITORY LIBRARIES."--The Dag Hammarskjöld Library"

    http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/services.htm#access which states in part: "The Library offers Secretariat and Mission staff, members of delegations and accredited representatives of NGOs an extensive training programme, which includes courses in the use of its online catalogue UNBISnet , of the United Nations Official Document System and of UN-I-QUE (UN Info Quest) , a ready-reference file which facilitates identification of symbols/sales numbers of hundreds of thousands of UN documents."

    UN libraries include DPI photo, film and audio libraries. Access to the NGO Resource Center which offers current UN documents. Access to selected meetings, briefings, seminars, conferences, film screenings, and language courses. An accredited NGO pass is required to access these library resources. It is a deliberate untruth to state that these facilities can be accessed by "anybody" , or without registering as a NGO.

    Is simply being described as an NGO wrong , as alleged by some opposers?

    An NGO is simply a non-governmental organisation - an acronym. It confers no political status. It could apply to any non-government organisation - a listed or unlisted company , a club , association or any religion , Christian or otherwise.

    Was there really no change in NGO status or responsibilities as some apostates claim?

    Quoting from the brochure: “After three years of negotiation, ECOSOC reviewed its arrangements for consultation with NGOs in July 1996. One outcome was ECOSOC Resolution 1996/31, which revised the arrangements for NGO consultation with ECOSOC....A second outcome...Decision 1996/297, which recommended that the General Assembly examine, at it 51st session, the QUESTION OF THE PARTICIPATION OF NGOS IN ALL AREAS OF WORK OF THE UN...Subsequently, in the General Assembly Working Group looking into the STRENGTHENING OF THE UN SYSTEM a sub-group on NGOs was formed.” Summary: During 1994 - 1996 , a new framework evolved to encourage NGOs to become more engaged with promoting the UNs ideals. This was not communicated directly with existing NGOs who simply had their renewals rubber stamped (a process so automatic that the UN had Lloyd Barry on the paperwork as the primary WTS contact several years after his death!). When the WTS became aware of the changed situation & criteria , they ended the association.

    Did the WTS “spice up” its articles during 1991 - 2001 in favour of the UN?

    An honest hearted reader would read , for example (by no means a conclusive list)

    w97 5/1 13 No Peace for the False Messengers!;

    w95 10/1 3 Fifty Years of Frustrated Efforts;

    w95 10/1 5 A World Without War_When?;

    All of them point out that the UN is a failure at fulfilling its stated purpose and will be removed by God’s government.

    What are the motives in apostates hyping up and misrepresenting the UN “issue”?

    Apostates are aware that most Jws view the UN in negative terms , influenced by the representation and identification in Revelation as a “Scarlet coloured wild beast.” In reality , the UN broadly has positive goals and purposes and has promoted freedom of worship and human rights in many lands , defending basic freedoms. Jws also believe that the UN will be used by Jehovah as an agency in the future to destroy false religion.. Nevertheless , any story of a link between the WTS & the UN will , at first glance , appear damaging to Jws. Misrepresentation and vigorous promoting (just look how many threads there are on this issue in "the best-of" section) has affected certain weaker ones. Other apostates , while admitting that the UN is a bit of a non-issue , view it as part of a multi attack process , linking it with Rand Corp , Philip Morris , $740 billion wealth , subliminal images and other similar non-stories to create a “no smoke without fire” / “buy enough tickets and you will win the raffle” approach.

    Do apostates offer any real alternative to a worship of Jehovah based around an association with Jehovah’s witnesses?

    No. Apostates simply wish to destroy the faith of active JWs. If they then decide to worship trees , pray to the Devil or build an idol of Benny Hill and bow down - great. The key word is “freedom” - as used in Genesis 3. The aim is to break down & destroy rather than build up.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    (1) The NGO agreement was to support the principles of the UN charter and its work, but ONLY as defined as being “in accordance with” the WTS’ own “aims and purposes.



    Do you have primary source documentation for this? If so please provide.

    Some of the other points were responded to here: http://www.geocities.com/thewatchtowerstudy/un1.htm

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    My observation, which I think is valid whether one is discussing with ex-JWs, non-JWs, or current JWs, is that most often in discussing the UN scandal, we are likely to state something to the effect that "the Society became a UN NGO in 1991...". It seems to me that very often we would pair the term "NGO" with the "UN" so I don't think it is inaccurate to state it in that way. Of course the Society was an NGO before but it was a "U.N. NGO affiliate" beginning in 1991.

    Oro,

    U.N. NGO does not equal UN/DPI Asoociate member. The fact is, when ex-JWs tell current JWs the Society became a UN NGO in 1991, the WTS denies it (quite correctly) on the basis that they (1) never became part of the UN, as the UN/DPI itself states, and (2) they already WERE and always HAVE BEEN an NGO.

    The fact is, this leaves the ex-JW trying to clarify what they originally meant to a current JW who has already tuned out.

    The fact is, that the WTS never became a UN NGO affiliate, in 1991 or at any other time. If we claim that such a relationship existed, both the UN and the WTS will correctly deny it.

    Factual statements are the only thing that will damage the WTS or wake up current JWs.

    BTW, if you reread the sentence you felt I wrote in error you will see that I began by stipulating that the same Committee that allowed the WTS to create the relationship had to allow them to dissolve it. My sentence did not contain any factual error on that point. In both cases the WTS had to apply for a change in the relationship status and await committee approval, as I stated.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Dozy,

    (1) The NGO agreement was to support the principles of the UN charter and its work, but ONLY as defined as being “in accordance with” the WTS’ own “aims and purposes.
    The UN itself informs the NGOs that "association of NGOs with the DPI DOES NOT CONSTITUTE THEIR INCORPORATION INTO THE UNITED NATIONS SYSTEM!” (Cf. ECOSOC Resolution 1296; Part II,12.) The position of the NGO’s is only consultative; it only aids and promotes the UN’s gaining it’s objective in that the NGO advises and informs in areas which are of concern to the NGO.

    Unfortunately, repeating a misrepresentation does not make it true. The 1968 ECOSOC Resolution created the necessary framework within which NGOs could associate to various departments of the UN, however it DID NOT purport to set out the Criteria for Association that each Department's Committee was charged with establishing.

    Your continued assertion that the ECOSOC Resoultion contains the initial terms for association is false. Completely and utterly false.

    The DPI Committee on NGOs established the initial Criteria for Association and support of the principles of the UN Charter was the first criterion. Principle #6 of those principles has the nations as the guarantors of "international peace and security."

    Read the 1963 Resolution (published in Watchtower, November 15, 1963) passed at the District Convention series and then tell me whether one of Jehovah's Witnesses could agree to support that principle.

    I have repeatedly asked you two questions which you studiously ignore. I will try again. I understand completely how horribly difficult these questions must be for you to answer without any double-talk.

    (1) Is the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) a secular organization that has objectives contrary to the Bible, hence, under judgment by Jehovah God?

    (2) Did the WTS join the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) as an Associate member?

    Please answer these, instead of continuing to post the same tired song which in the end doesn't justify the crystal clear, factual answers to these two questions.

    Oroborus21,

    In case you need an object lesson for why the correct terminology is important, observe Dozy's post. Over half the post is spent doing what he considers to be correcting misconceptions that those silly apostates have. The only thing he is really correcting is misstatements ex-JWs make, the ex-JW concept is correct.

    Using the correct terminology matters a great deal when trying to prove something to someone who doesn't want to believe you are right. They will get sidetracked into disputing errors of speech as an escape mechanism.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    hooberus,

    Do you have primary source documentation for this?

    Dozy believes that the ECOSOC Resolution somehow supercedes and overrides the DPI Committee on NGOs when it comes to setting guidelines for associate membership with the UN/DPI. Dozy fails to realize that the ECOSOC forms the BASIS, not the CEILING, of the requirements.

    Any UN Department may impose MORE stringent guidelines for Association at any time, the ECOSOC guidelines provide the bare minimum that is absolutely required.

    That said, Dozy believes the ECOSOC Resolution is the primary source for the statement you questioned. He is wrong, but he doesn't know it.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Did it ever occur to all the apologist writers, that:

    A: There was nothing at all wrong with being an NGO or using the Library in the first place. If it could help third world people, why not?

    B. The actual "wrong part" was the hypocrisy of bitching about the scarlet harlot all these years and going and doing this in secret.

    Apologise for that, riders of the beast...

  • Victorian sky
    Victorian sky

    DOZY- Do apostates offer any real alternative to a worship of Jehovah based around an association with Jehovah’s witnesses?

    No. Apostates simply wish to destroy the faith of active JWs. If they then decide to worship trees , pray to the Devil or build an idol of Benny Hill and bow down - great. The key word is “freedom” - as used in Genesis 3. The aim is to break down & destroy rather than build up. Oh Dozy, you are in my prayers. I love active JWs too much to let them live, 'lives of quiet desperation', in an organization based on lies. Sorry, I can't just walk away, not when people are suffering under the guise of a religion. Just to clarify, yes my life is dedicated to 'destroying' the faith in the WTS not in God, big difference, get your facts straight. Also, you'd like to think it's about the freedom in Genesis 3, everyone here has their own views and that's their perrogative and I don't put anyone down for it. I'm a Christian and I'm talking about the freedom in Galations 5, verse 1 - 'So Christ has truly set you free. Now make sure that you stay free.' verse 13, 'For you have been called to live in freedom...use your freedom to serve one another in love.' That's what I intend to do. Give active JWs all the love they aren't getting in that cold organization and I'm not going to stop helping free as many as I can for Christ. - God Bless, V-Sky

  • ballistic
    ballistic
    No. Apostates simply wish to destroy the faith of active JWs. If they then decide to worship trees , pray to the Devil or build an idol of Benny Hill and bow down - great. The key word is “freedom” - as used in Genesis 3. The aim is to break down & destroy rather than build up.

    Dozy - you know very well that you cannot make broad sweeping generalisations about any group including ex-jw's based on the vocal few on a message board or a few message boards. The fact is, we are a tiny percentage of the 1000's who leave the witnesses for various reasons every single year. I think this particular web site represents many who have lost faith, true and one or two (like myself) who have joined the church of Benny Hill, but you cannot make a true scientific analysis based on membership here.

  • dozy
    dozy

    A: There was nothing at all wrong with being an NGO or using the Library in the first place. If it could help third world people, why not?

    Is this not the very criticism that opposers / apostates make of JWs?

    B. The actual "wrong part" was the hypocrisy of bitching about the scarlet harlot all these years and going and doing this in secret.

    The phrase "done in secret" deliberately is designed to give the impression of a culture of hiddeness & deceit. The WTS has dealings in hundreds of countries which involves lobbying & legal activities with numerous organisations , including governments and various agencies. To expect them to issue a press release each time they wrote a letter or did anything would be unneccessary.

    Auldsouls questions:

    1) Is the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) a secular organization that has objectives contrary to the Bible (does it? - see below), hence, under judgment by Jehovah God? Deliberately trick question! The UN & governments stand under judgement from God ,but this does not mean that Christians (individually or collectively) can have no dealings with them. They are superior authorities (Rom 13) in position for our benefit. Reading through the DPI mandate and looking at its website , I can see nothing that would disqualify a loose association with such an organisation. http://www.undpi.org/

    United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI) mandate Principal functions:

    • Promotion of an informed understanding of the work and purposes of the UN;
    • Planning, programming and coordination of information activities related to the priority issues and special events of the UN in consultation with the departments and offices concerned;
    • Seeking support and cooperation from external organizations for the public information activities of the UN;
    • Establishing productive working relationships with mass media organizations, government information services, NGOs and educational institutions;
    • Translating into local language, printing and more widely distributing materials originally produced at Headquarters
    • Organizing the celebration of UN Observances

    (2) Did the WTS join the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) as an Associate member? Yes. The key , of course , being that word "associate" - an indirect , arms length relationship.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    I was an employee of a 501(3)c corporation for many years, Dozy.

    (2) Did the WTS join the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) as an Associate member? ; Yes. The key , of course , being that word "associate" - an indirect , arms length relationship.

    This is a complete misrepresentation of an Associate relationship. An outright lie, if you know it is misrepresented. An Associate in corporate terms is defined as follows:

    Merriam-Webster Online

    Main Entry: as·so·ciate (find the adjective definition)
    Pronunciation: &-'sO-shE-&t, -sE-, -"At, -sh&t
    Function: adjective
    1 : closely connected (as in function or office) with another
    2 : closely related especially in the mind
    3 : having secondary or subordinate status <associate membership in a society>

    Main Entry: as·so·ciate (find the noun definition)
    Pronunciation: same as 2
    Function: noun
    1 : one associated with another: as a : PARTNER, COLLEAGUE b : COMPANION, COMRADE
    2 a : an entry-level member (as of a learned society, professional organization, or profession) b : EMPLOYEE, WORKER

    There is nothing "arms length" about it. In fact, just the opposite is true. There are attempts to bring Associates as close as is allowed under the rules. Another dictionary defines Associate this way:

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

    associate (e-so´shê-ât´, -sê-) verb
    associated, associating, associates verb, transitive
    1. To join as a partner, ally, or friend.
    2. To connect or join together; combine.
    3. To connect in the mind or imagination: "I always somehow associate Chatterton with autumn" (John Keats).

    verb, intransitive
    1. To join in or form a league, union, or association. See synonyms at join.
    2. To keep company.

    noun (-ît, -ât´)
    Abbr. assoc.
    1. A person united with another or others in an act, an enterprise, or a business; a partner or colleague.
    2. A companion; a comrade.
    3. One that habitually accompanies or is associated with another; an attendant circumstance.
    4. A member of an institution or society who is granted only partial status or privileges.
    5. Often Associate . A degree conferred by a two-year college after the prescribed course of study has been successfully completed: an Associate in Arts.

    adjective (-ît, -ât´)
    1. Joined with another or others and having equal or nearly equal status: an associate editor.
    2. Having partial status or privileges: an associate member of the club.
    3. Following or accompanying; concomitant.

    I won't belabor the point further, but you are plainly incorrect in your assessment of what the term Associate means in the business world. If you continue to assert your view as the correct one, please do the courtesy of backing up your claim.

    (1) Is the UN/DPI (as distinguished from the UN) a secular organization that has objectives contrary to the Bible (does it? - see below), hence, under judgment by Jehovah God?

    You claim this is a trick question, and yet in the context of the paragraph from the od book from whence this question arises, there are two scriptures given. Here they are, for your enlightenment.

    Isaiah 2:4—And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.
    Revelation 19:17-21—I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”
    19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth. And all the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them.

    You are WRONG again, Dozy. The question relates DIRECTLY to political involvements and the issue of political neutrality, and has to be stretched to refer to the YMCA or quasi-religious etanglements.

    Now that you know it isn't a trick question, why didn't you answer it? But since everyone else now knows it wasn't a trick question, your answer is not required. You answered the second one and that is sufficient. I hope you look honestly at these two facts:

    (1) According to CCoJW dogma, the UN/DPI is an organization that has objectives contrary to the Bible and is under judgement by God.

    (2) The WTS voluntarily chose to join the UN/DPI and maintain that Associate membership for almost 10 full years.

    Whatever else you may put forward cannot change or modify those two indisputable facts. And those two facts alone are sufficient proof for me (and many others) without any need to look further. Especially given that they do not agree with your assessment (they don't believe they joined the UN/DPI) how could they possibly have repented of their gross wrongdoing?

    If I commit adultery and I call it fraud and don't even apologize for committing fraud, have I repented of adultery? Of course not. Think it through. You obviously have a sharp mind, it is just blinded by those who are making themselves seem like apostles of Christ. And it is no wonder that they do this. (2 Corinthians 11:12-15) Why are you helping them lie?

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

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