Need a rebutal to elders!!!!!!!!!

by beaches 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  beaches

  Hi everyone,

  Let me preface this by saying I wanted to fade quietly.......

  I went to the mall and my husband called me on my cell to let me know 2 elders had stopped by (Sun after mtg). He told them that we had some questions and were looking into things. They of course asked "like what kind of things". He mentioned the 607 chronology and the WTS being a part of the UN. To that one elder responded - "They were never a part of the UN!". To which hubby responded yes and there is proof. He also brought up about the possiblity of this not being the "truth". They asked if you weren't to be in this organisation where would you go? His response was that he didn't even know if we had to be part of any organization and maybe that isn't what we should be doing as a christian. Elder said in response that if we look in the bible it will tell us that in heaven Jeh has organization. It is him, then Jesus, then 144,000 then different angels have different levels and jobs. Do we think that if Jeh has made sure there is org in heaven that he would let his people scatter about with all different beliefs. They said (of course) that they would like to "get together" with both of us and will see us at the memorial on wed.

  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

  Any way, hubby had to think about the Org in Heaven comment and said to me "he made sense". Meanwhile I am asking him why he opened his mouth in the first place because now they will be on our ass like an ingrown hair!!! We talked later that night and he said that if this was a decision that was to be made, he wanted it taken care of and the book shut. He didn't want our daughter to feel like she had to hide saying things to his parents and that was no way to raise her. I agree.

  My question is - I am so gone from this religion, I don't even know how I feel about the bible anymore and I really don't care what they have to show me about any organization in heaven, hell or earth. I need rebutal for hubby to their claims of org in heaven so to should there be one on earth...god would let his people run around willy-nilly, etc...I told him that is there interpretation of Bible just as other religions have there own. I really couldn't think because I was still in shock that he even said anything to Them.

  He knows the org is wrong on a lot of things and has told his sister that he can prove them wrong on more things than he can prove them right (0). But, he got mad at me for making his sis uncomfortable by bring a book on different religions to her house when we slept over. I was just reading it a night in the privacy of our guest bedroom, but they use that as thier tv room sometimes and they saw it and looked disgusted. He felt uncomfortable and didn't go to our daugters friends birthday, but did research on his own and came to the conclusion they're not wrong. I don't think he is completely sure of leaving and that is why I think the Elders might be able to convince him on something and then I'm back to square 1 or 2.
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  jeeprube

  
  
  
  
  

  This is a poor explanation of the facts, and I apologize. Check the www.freeminds.com site. There you'll find a treasure trove of information. I'd advise printing off as much as you can about each topic you want to discuss, and arranging it in individual folders according to subject. You'll have to do it in such a way as to erase your source, don't leave a website url or link on your printouts. You have to force them to face the information, not the source. Their greatest ploy is to discredit your information by assuming it's apostasy.

  Force them out of their comfort zone, don't let them jump from point to point. Make them fully discuss each bit of information, without quickly switching lines of reasoning.
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  james_woods

  Well, when I had to do this about 30 years ago, I think the one thing that kept me determined to proceed through the doubts was all the false prophecy.

  They may think they can waffle on 1914, 1918 and what they meant by these. They may want to claim that they never really said anything about 1975. They are lying, and anybody can see they are looking for a way out of prophesy that did not come true.

  They simply cannot deny, however, that they really did teach that "millions now living will never die" and that the generation old enough to know what was going on in 1914 would definately see the end. This was false prophecy, plain and simple.

  You don't even have to go far to prove it - recently they had to retract their own words on 1914 generation and make it a vague sort of nothing.

  I told them about the generation running out of time back in 1980 when I had to face their committee - they called me the false prophet because big A was certainly coming right away. This was back when they took the generation as 70-80 years and you had to be old enough in 1914 to know the facts.

  I wonder what they would say to me now after nearly 30 years & now that they have had to change this?

  Hang in there - you don't need to discuss much. They lied to you plain and simple and you should call them on it.

  Good wishes, James
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  What-A-Coincidence

  
  "Do we think that if Jeh has made sure there is org in heaven that he would let his people scatter about with all different beliefs"

  Genesis 11:1-9

  give this to the elders and have them get back to you http://jehovah-has-become-king.com/e-book.html

  the books gives an interesting viewpoint (some say it is whack) (some think it is on). Let the reader use discernment. Just one more tool on our way to Christian Freedom :-)

  that reminds me ... Ray Franz's book are great.

  Play mind games - Have them read the books and have them get back to you once they are done reading. If they don't want to read them, then you don't want to talk to them.
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  Legolas

  Here is a great link about if god needs or has always had an organization!

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/94276/1.ashx
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  undercover

  He mentioned the 607 chronology and the WTS being a part of the UN. To that one elder responded - "They were never a part of the UN!". To which hubby responded yes and there is proof.

  It is very important to understand exactly how the WTS relationship with the UN worked. Only national governments can join the UN. Other organizations, or NGOs, cannot join. It may sound nit-picky, but if we run around saying the WTS was part of the UN or joined the UN it sounds a little half-baked and that we're repeating some apostate nonsense we read on the Internet. If we are going to go toe-to-toe with an elder about the UN involvement, we need to use the correct terminology and understand the issue inside and out.

  That's true with any subject that is going to be "debated" about with the elders. Know your subject inside and out. Know what responses you'll get from them before hand and be prepared to discount it.

  This is important as well; stick to the one or two subjects that you question. Whether it's the UN thing or 607 or whatever, if you raise that subject up, don't let them change the subject and you don't change the subject either. If you question the date of 607, don't let the conversation go anywhere until 607 is proven. If they can't prove it, end of discussion. They can come back when it they can prove it.

  I may have not given you what you were looking for exactly but I hope this helps if you have to go another round with the elders.

  Good luck.
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  Elsewhere

  Elder said in response that if we look in the bible it will tell us that in heaven Jeh has organization. It is him, then Jesus, then 144,000 then different angels have different levels and jobs. Do we think that if Jeh has made sure there is org in heaven that he would let his people scatter about with all different beliefs.

  Stop and think for a minute... he is doing an old "bait and switch" routine.

  Here, I'll show you:

  It is true that there are humans on earth, therefore wouldn't it be logical to conclude that humans also exist on the sun? After all, the earth does go around the sun which means that anything on the earth must also be on the sun.

  You see. I took a known fact and then tried to superimpose it onto something totally different. Bottom line: Have the elder show you the word "organization" in the bible and how the bible describes a company in New York called the "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society". Something tells me that you won't be able to find "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" in the bible.
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  A Paduan

  JW - there was an organisation in the first century

  You - the word organisation isn't in the bible

  JW - well, there was a type of organisation in the first century

  You - but the wtbts only began about eigtheen hundred years later, what's the connection ?

  JW - there have always been "true christians" like us

  You - you mean "true christians" who weren't in an 'organisation' ?

  (By now there is a background separatist consideration building up between you)

  JW - they weren't fully organised blah blah blah, but were dedicated bible students, and then those who had been faithful and discreet were blessed with the current 'organisation' - gifts of men don't ya know

  You - how in the world do you susbstantiate that God 'picked' them (aka your religion) as being 'faithful', or anyone for that matter - that's one heck of a claim - did he talk to them ?

  JW - because of the preaching work we do... blah blah blah

  You - but you preach wrong things and mistakes - some would say lies - like that 607 date thing - and the 1914 generation thing, "My God" - and all those armageddon dates before that - how could 'God' be directing that ?

  JW - we're just imperfect men

  You - isn't everyone, so are we - so what sort of organisation do we have to be part of ? God directed, or imperfect men directed ?
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  What-A-Coincidence

  damm a paduan - You have convinced me even more. Thanks!

  JW - there have always been "true christians" like us

  You - you mean "true ;christians" who weren't in an 'organisation' ?
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  unclebruce

  I agree with jeeprube about the importance of you and your husband being on the same song page but I see no point at all in arguing with the Elders or any other JW™ diehards about anything Watchtower™ related.

  The only change you cause in them will spell trouble for you. Each to his/her own but I stuck to the principle: "ask me no questions and I'll tell you no truths. Why give the goons amunition or load their guns?

  best of fortune™ luck, silent before accusers unc.

  ps: You said you want to fade quietly and I appreciate silence comes more easily to some.