Need a rebutal to elders!!!!!!!!!

by beaches 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  peacefulpete

  
  It has already been said, but you lost control of the discussion. When the elder swithched the topic to his "safe ground" of the wonderful organization vs. the darkness and emptiness outside. Its all conditioned response. They live with the fear of being outside the organization because the organization tells them outside it dangerous and scary. When you question whether there needs be an organization his response assumes one by asking you where else are you going to go to to find the organization God is using. It may surprize some but the Moonies use the very same logic to dispell thoughts of leaving among its members. This is in fact a common trait of cults. This emphasizes the need for us to make clear for those we talk to that they always have us to go to for support, that is, there IS somewhere to go to. The next step for the Elder is to casually suggestt hat you are harboring secret sins or desires to sin and this trivial matter is simply your weak haert seeking justification...... This is design to now trigger all the guilt feelings you naturally feel for doubting and likely feel for private thoughts or actions. This conversation is now fully turned on you rather than the WTS hypocrisy and dishonesty. Many turn red like a lobster and ask for 'help' with these thoughts or with doubts. Its all conditioned response and Elders are experienced in using them.

  The very best approach to exiting is ,IMO, a critical study of the Bible itself. This reveals the true nature of this collection of writings and the varied theological stances within them. It is not surprizing that there are a number of passages that emphasize a structured hierchy. That was the purpose of the passages being written. Control by a infant proto-Orthodoxy. Clearly it is possible to find aspects of the Bible valuable even inspiring without becoming an unwitting pawn in a 1900 year old bid for control.
• 

  garybuss

  Who, of all religions on earth today, has "the credentials of a true prophet?" I can see only two possible answers to this question:
  
  1] The Society
  2] Nobody
  
  If the Society does not claim to be a *real* prophet; a true prophet - - then wouldn't that mean that there isn't *any* actual prophet on earth today? The only other source of prophets would be "Babylon the Great," wouldn't it? Isn't the Watchtower Society the only possible source of a real prophet? But if they deny being such a prophet, then wouldn't that mean that there isn't one single prophet on earth today? (Don Cameron)
  
  *******************************************
  
  Let's see if I have this straight. The Governing Body "takes the lead", we are repeatedly told. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not follow men, only God, we are even more repeatedly told. So, whom does the Governing Body lead? If they have no followers among the Jehovah's Witnesses, where do they have followers? Do they lead an empty procession with no people in it at all? What kind of leader has no followers? (Robert V Frazier)
  
• 

  Kaput

  A scriptural discussion isn't going to cut it. Hit 'em hard with the info in their own publications, and stick with just a couple of issues you're concerned about. This could be your swan song so prepare yourselves, and don't expect to knock the elders out of their "race for life" with your newly found "truth". These guys are elders because they've been brainwashed more than the R&F. An example of this is found on page 345 of Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz where he tells of a Circuit Assembly meeting for elders: The District Overseer, Bart Thompson, held up a Society publication that had a green cover. He then said to the assembly of elders, "If the Society told me that this book is black instead of green, I would say, 'Y'know I could have sworn that it was green, but if the Society says it's black then it's black!'" They're willing to carry out the dictates of their Brooklyn overlords to the death...not theirs...yours. Get ready to say "bye-bye" to the Borg.
• 

  drew sagan

  My two cents:
  
  I've noticed that alot of people on the board are using the 607 discussion as well as the UN scandal as a way to question the Elders as well as question the WTS. Personally, I don't think that is a very wise direction to take. The Elders can allways "rely on the Bible" when it comes to 607, and from what i've read on the board most people don't get far with this line. They become viewed as stubborn by the Elders, people who want an excuse to leave. The UN scandal is interesting information, but I would never use it as my reason to question the truth, because they will not be familiar with any of it and then will simply see it as a ploy from apostates.
  
  What I have noticed in my own expierance is that using the Bible to rebuff the Elders is the best approach. This may be difficult for somebody to do if they no longer believe in the Bible, but even then I think it is worth it. Using for example many of the scritpures and logical reasonings in "In Search of Christian Freedom" by Ray Franz will allways give you the appearance of someone who is in search of Bible truth, rather than somebody looking for an excuse. Whether you are really interested in the Bible is you own decision, but I feel that by using it wisely and with skill you will allways have the upper hand over the Elders. I also suggest not getting into Failed Watchtower prophecy, instead focus on how their teachings confilct with scritpure. Something like this:
  
  Matthew 20:1-16 shows that people are not given a better reward simply for when they become followers of the master. How then is it that only people born before a certain date will go to heaven?
  
  And that's my two cents.
• 

  Kaput

  Using for example many of the scritpures and logical reasonings in "In Search of Christian Freedom" by Ray Franz will allways give you the appearance of someone who is in search of Bible truth, rather than somebody looking for an excuse. Whether you are really interested in the Bible is you own decision, but I feel that by using it wisely and with skill you will allways have the upper hand over the Elders.

  drew:

  Uhhhhhh...been there, done that. You never get the upper hand over the elders. Up until the early 80's, you could intelligently discuss scripture....but up to a point. Now you cannot discuss scripture unless it falls within the parameters established by the Society. For example, you gave Matthew 20:1-16 as an example of a scripture you might be "concerned about" with the accompanying question, "How then is it that only people born before a certain date will go to heaven?"

  If you asked an elder that question 25 years ago, he would tell you to do some research in the Society's publications, and if you still weren't satisfied with the results, then you could write to Bethel directly and ask them. If you ask an elder that question NOW (and you're no longer a newbie JW), you will be put on a short list of people in need of watching (maybe a long list depending on the amount of dissonance in the congregation). Merely by asking that question invites closer scrutiny because you are still expressing concern, albeit scripturally, about a MAJOR doctrine of the JW's --- the 2 classes of individuals in the organization (anointed and other sheep) and the "carved in stone" date (1935) marking the time of their distinction. If the elders are "nice" about it, they'll "kindly" direct you to Chapter 97 of The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived" book for the "proper" application of that scriptural text.

  As the October 1, 1994 Watchtower states at the bottom of page 8, "All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the 'greatly diversified wisdom of God' can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave. ---John 6:68."
• 

  jwfacts

  Jehovah is organised, that does not mean he needs an Organisation. If it was vital the word would appear in the bible.
  Anyway, the reality is that the Watchtower Society is a Corporation not a spiritual Organisation. If it was spiritually directed it would not have falsely promoted incorrect dates and doctrine for many decades.
  
  I recommend your husband read http://jwfacts.com/index_files/slave.htm to see that Jehovah works directly through individuals and not any organisation.
  Also read http://jwfacts.com/index_files/5min.htm as even if Jehovah did have an organisation it could not be the Watchtower Society.
  I hope that helps and please email me if you have any questions as i would love to help any way that I can.
• 

  ballistic

  I really don't care what they have to show me about any organization in heaven, hell or earth

  I like the idea of organisation in hell. Can I be chief butt whip master?
• 

  willyloman

  Up until the early 80's, you could intelligently discuss scripture....but up to a point. Now you cannot discuss scripture unless it falls within the parameters established by the Society.

  Kaput has summed up the major paradigm shift that's ocurred within the organization over the past 25 years. It explains why attempting to debate JWs is a complete waste of time. Their current mindset is contained in the words they published in the WT a few years ago: "There's no need to spend a lot of time doing Bible research. All the research has been done for you."
• 

  beaches

  Thanks SO much Again!!!

  I am getting the feeling that all situations are different when it comes to how to reason w/ elders, and I am just going to have to wait until hubby's ready to go. He's not. Asked him what he expected from this "get together". He said he just wanted to listen to what they had to say. I asked if he was going to have anything printed out to prove UN issue since they didn't know about it. He said no, he just wants to listen to what they have to say. I think I'm going to cry. At this point I will sit w/ them so as not to arouse elder suspition and so I can hear their reasoning to him in order to try to refute it later. I will not make a peep, though. This is his questioning, not mine.

  AK Jeff - thank you, I had already come across that site and read it myself.

  Hellrider - Thank you for your article. That is very interesting and I might be able to get hubby to read it since he has been on that site before.

  jwfacts - Thanks for thos links. Hubby won't read "apostate" things yet. I have to present them on my own. I appreciate your offer for help:)

  ballistic - your post!LOL! You can be any thing you want to be in never-never land
• 

  cyberguy

  Drew Matthew 20:1-16 shows that people are not given a better reward simply for when they become followers of the master. How then is it that only people born before a certain date will go to heaven? Great point Drew! Beaches The earthly “Organization” is the same as the “faithful slave” and “anointed remnant” (according to WT). In other words, unless you are part of the “anointed remnant” you are not part of God’s earthly “Organization.” That means that 99+% of the “other sheep”-JW’s are not part of the “Organization,” but must wait until the end of the “thousand years!” At this time they only support the “Organization” but are not in it! Now I know this sounds ridiculous, crazy even, and it is! Even more bizarre is that most JW’s are not aware of this teaching. And I’ll add, they really can’t explain many of the other strange teachings of the WT either! I can try and scan a copy of talk-outline dealing with the “Organization,” the one that elders use for public talks. I recall hearing the “Organization” talk some 4/5 years ago when I use to attend, and was very disturbed by it, and so looked up the actual outline the elder had to have used; I have a copy of all the public talks (I use to give many of them). What I find so interesting is that the term has taken on additional meaning, in that most JW’s think about the WT corporations, the superstructure and hierarchy of men as the “organization!” I’m sure that when this terminology began to be used in the 1930’s, that this was the intent! What I mean is, they needed some way to explain how it was possible that a small group of men at the helm of a book printing company should be in charge of all the world wide congregations – thus the birth of the “organization.” Here’s another way to think about it. If the early “organization” is the same as the “Christian Congregation” then why introduce another term? Why not just say “Christian Congregation?” (By the way, only the anointed are truly part of the “Christian Congregation” too – according to WT). The reason is obvious, you can’t explain the superstructure of control, “guided” by the WT corporate president (who ran things before the GB arrangement in the early 1970’s), without it! A final point to consider is this:

  (1 Corinthians 4:6-7) 6 Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and A•pol´los for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” in order that YOU may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other.

  Where is the “Organization” directly stated in the Bible? If the “Organization” is the same as the “Christian Congregation,” then why not just use that?