I think I did it!

by freeman 51 Replies latest jw friends

  • detective
    detective

    Thewiz says:
    "I wasn't attempting to theorize about all the wrongs those kids MIGHT have done. How can I provide some kind of reference point to start from if I don't use some kind of example?"

    Note the example you chose, wiz. The kids were disfellowshipped so the only feasible example would have to be negative, right? Because people are only disfellowshipped for the bad things they do, right? People are never wrongfully disfellowshipped? You immediately assumed something negative about those kids and then had the nerve to say "it isn't my business to know what they did"? Apparently it isn't your business to find out if the disfellowshipping in any way reflected justice. It's funny that you're polite enough to respect their privacy but immediately tell your kids not to hang out with them anymore. You have NO IDEA if the disfellowshipping is justified or not! (I won't even go into my whole feeling on that shunning policy).

    And then you have the nerve to complain about how your friend turned her back on you when she became reinstated? You expected more from that woman than you yourself are ready to give! Hey, she was just following the rules. This is what you're raising your kids to do. Follow the rules. Society says you're bad, you're bad. I don't need to know if you're really bad and I'm certainly not going to speak to you to find out. The group says you're a pariah and that's good enough for me. Come talk to me when you're good again.
    Buddy, you are raising your children to be the same way that woman was to you! I feel for you, I really do. You can't put the pieces together in your head. What that woman did to you, your children will do to someone else.
    Obedience. That's what it's about.

    organ transplants are cannibalism taught '67-'80
    Wanna tell me nobody gets wrongfully disfellowshipped?

  • freeman
    freeman

    Thank you all for you responses, Wow I’m shocked!

    A few of you asked for me to upload my letter, or more parts of it. Sorry don’t have it in electronic form here, however my letter is really just a personalized subset of a paper written by others. Don’t know who the author of this paper was but I believe it was called ‘shunning VS disfellowshiping’ or something very close to that. It covers everything I wrote in my letter to this elder and much, much more. If someone knows a URL to it, please be so kind to post it here.

    Demouse you said: “ IMHO, it has to be admitted that there IS scriptural precedent for shunning (..not even eating with such a man..nor saying a greeting etc). Whatever the circumstances, that is clearly shunning of a sort.

    You are correct, back then persons were shunned FROM ONE FORM OF CHRISTIAN WORSHIP, but not a general shunning as is practiced by the witnesses today. Before you can understand what is being said here, you must first understand the customs of association for worship practiced by first-century Jews and Christians. It is quite different then today.

    It is a fact that back then there were two kinds of worship, both public and private.

    Public meetings, such as at the temple and in synagogues, which anyone was allowed to attend; and

    Private gatherings in homes. . Private worship meetings were held in believer’s homes. In such meetings they often shared a special meal, and it is from this form of worship unrepentant sinners were banned.

    As I said, when Christians met in private homes, it was usually over a special meal with prayer. A presiding minister hosted the meal often using fellowship funds. It was from this private Christian fellowship for worship that sinners were excluded, banned, or shunned. As far as not greeting such a sinner, there is more to the greeting then the WTBTS would like you to know about. It is a fact that Christians were instructed to "greet" one another with a kiss. See (Rom.16:16; 1.Cor.16:20; 2Cor.13:12; Ti.3:15; 1Pet.5:14). And it is THIS GREETING, the one ASSOCIATED WITH WORSHIP that we are not to participate in with such ones.

    Could you imagine all that kissing going on in the Kingdum Hall if they did things the same way today as they did back then? The pedophiles would have a field day!

    Seriously, don’t take my word for it, learn what the practices of the early Christians were for yourself. There are many first hand accounts as well as commentaries on the early church. Read up on this and you will also find that knocking on stranger’s doors has no Biblical support as well. You know the scripture in ACTS when Paul says I did not hold back from teaching you both Publicly and from house to house. This little gem in the NWT is a concoction altered by the WTBTS to support the house-to-house work. It should read more like “publicly and in your homes”. Here Paul is contrasting the two forms of his ministry, “public” as in the Synagogue, and private as in believer’s homes. But they don’t want you to know that, do they?

    Now as far as how one should treat someone who is disfellowed, the Bible is quite clear:

    “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations ['Gentile' in some translations] and as a tax collector”.--Matt.18:15-17

    In light of the above scripture, how should one treat a disfellowshiped person, as a Gentile or a man of the nations, just like any other non-believer. Certainly it was not meant to convey the hateful way of shunning as practiced by the witnesses. Also did you notice it says “speak to the congregation” about the sinner’s course? When was the last time something like this was brought up to the congregation? Never in my experience, it’s all done in secrecy in the star-chamber of the backroom. Not at all like the scriptures outline, is it?

    Well I have to go, so thank you for listening to my rant and thank you for your support. I’ll let you know what happens as it unfolds. Again thanks for all the replies.

    freeman

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Freeman,

    Welcome to the board! You sure came in with a bang! I hope you'll take the opportunity to share more of your thoughts as time goes.....And thanks for the great exposition on why the way JW's practice shunning is non-scriptural. They'll never admit it, but it's all about "fear" and "control", nothing to do with "love" and "righteousness" or winning back sinners for God.

    GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
    Mark Twain (1835-1910)

  • thewiz
    thewiz

    are you people warped?

    First I have only been to the hall once in 2 years and haven't read the pubs in just over that. I didn't say I gave up my belief in the bible.

    If I said, "Well what did they do?"

    I would have gotten "What business is of yours. You're only trying to find out because your a meddler, sticking your nose where it doesn't belong. You only want to judge them."

    Please if anyone is going to quote scripture, make sure it isn't spurious. (Jo 8)

    I have no idea what these guys were DF for, yes there are people who have been wrongfully DF. Didn't you get that when I mentioned Mr. Franz?

    I know that if a person is sorry for what they have done they are not DF. Can I say that for absolutely every single case in the entire world? No. And you don't have to cry. Many times I find in these posts you guys are misrepresenting the WTBS and JWs. Am I saying they are NEVER wrong? No.

    If you are going to be in the org than you have to abide by it's rules. If you don't ya get out. It's as simple as that.

    The WTBS would never say that my family could not try to help my sister. Where do you people think this junk up?

    When a person goes into treatment do they allow them to stay around the people that would not condemn them? No! They are taken from that environment and encouraged strongly not to return.

    The person telling my brother that he was wrong, sounds just like many of you guys. Let them know the error of their ways, by not associating with them. The person wakes up and says, "If I love my family and want to be with them, then I should give this life up."

    If a person adimattly denies they have done anything wrong then what choice do they have? Keep em around.

    It's funny how you people assume they did nothing wrong.

    And where does the WTBS judge these people as evil? DF is simply a disciplinary action. It does not say they are evil. You're assuming that.

    If I decide that I don't want my children associating with someone then I feel I have the right to enforce that. That applies even to "good-standing" JWs. I want to protect my kids from harmful influences, if that is what they are.

    You can't win for losing.

    And I thought JWs were idiots! I thought JWs made ASSumptions!

  • bboyneko
    bboyneko

    Freeman excellent, thanks for clearing up 1 corinthians for me. Is this special kiss greeting the same one judas used to betray jesus?
    -Dan

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Wiz, you said:

    And where does the WTBS judge these people as evil? DF is simply a disciplinary action. It does not say they are evil. You're assuming that.

    No, this is not an assumption. The scriptures the JW's use to support their form of shunning say so. "You must clear out what is BAD from your midst." And 1 Corinthians 5:13 "Remove the WICKED man from among yourselves."

    Don't BAD and WICKED = EVIL?

    Further testifying to this, at my JC meeting, one elder called me "EVIL". Evidently at least one of the two others agreed, for they reached at least a 2-1 majority to kick me to the curb, even though I didn't want to leave (at least not then).

    So let's call DF'ing what it is: the congregation's judgment that a person is EVIL!

    GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
    Mark Twain (1835-1910)

  • Babykins
    Babykins

    Okay I think I have read enough about shunning being a "good" thing. First of all it is morally wrong and does nothing good. It breaks down families.
    Some of you justify shunning of ones that have done wrong, okay I will not dispute you about that, even though I think shunning for any reason is wrong. But what about those of us who just wanted out because we saw the hatred and discrimination in the Borg.
    My husband and I did nothing wrong we just wrote a letter stating that we did not agree with the organizations way of doing things. No fornication, no drugs, drinking, smoking. Nothing. Yet we are shunned by our families. I have not spoken to my parents for 5 years. I now have a 3 year old boy and he will never know his grandparents because they choose to follow this ridiculous form of "punishment". You can argue all you want, but I had a breakdown about a year ago because I was so devastated by their decision and did not have the strength to go on. Luckily I recieved help professionally and from friends. I am making it, but I still have to figure out what to tell my child when he starts asking about his grandparents.
    I usually dont speak up, but this thread caught my eye and I feel very strongly against shunning, for good reasons.

    Babykins

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Babykins,

    You are so right, shunning "breaks down families". It is an evil ploy by the organization to set people against each other, to use pressure to keep their people loyal.

    I am SO sorry to hear of your breakdown. This thing with the parents is so hard to face. (As a parent, I could never cruelly shun a child....that is so unnnatural!) Since my parents are in their 60's, I'm assuming they're going to stay JW's for the long term. In other words, I've lost them! It's hard to face up to it, but I've had to, to be able to cope and move on to other things in my life.

    I have a daughter who's turning 3 in December. I have NO idea what to tell her when she comes to an age of understanding. Even now she asks about her grandparents.

    Not that this post gave you any answers, except others are facing some similar, well, "stuff". [>:(]

    GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
    Mark Twain (1835-1910)

  • thewiz
    thewiz

    IF your parents do not want anything to do with you, that doesn't mean that they will have nothing to do with the grand kids does it?

    Maybe your're DA or DF or just don't go. That doesn't mean the child would be or should be punished.

    Gopher

    point well taken, although I don't have multiple translations in front of me at the moment, when you quote these references

    "You must clear out what is BAD from your midst." And 1 Corinthians 5:13 "Remove the WICKED man from among yourselves."

    you are quoting the bible NOT JWs, they just agree with it.

    Don't BAD and WICKED = EVIL?

    Not necessarily

    Sorry to hear that an Elder called you "evil", if he did, he was wrong.

    Not that it is realated to shunning directly per se, but if it is morally wrong to split/divide/seperate/or shun families how do you explain

    Matt 10:34 didn't Jesus himself say that he brought a sword? Families would get divided over his teachings. So has Jesus encouraged people to commit something that is morally wrong?

  • sf
    sf

    {{{{{Good for you freeman}}}}}}

    Nice "balls" ya got there. Hope the mrs. doesn't mind me saying so.

    As fas as "new light"...those "bulbs" are out of STOCK!

    bwahhhhhhhhhhhh

    sKally, "www" klass

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