by Honesty 38 Replies latest jw friends
Honesty:
Do you believe He died for all of your sins?
No, and I don't believe there's any sense in which someone could die for my "sins", especially a god-man who lived thousands of years before I could have committed any sin. The idea is absurd, and it offends my sense of justice.
It is funny how the concept of sin (moral failure) is understood, at least in a general sense, by people everywhere. We usually see it very clearly in others (especially leaders) and denounce it roundly, and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all. However, it's a case of cognitive dissonance when we begin to suspect we may be tainted as well as those guys; how do we resolve that?
Until you finally get to that point, the gospel really looks irrelevent.
An aside... I can't remember the precise formula, but the Mormons don't believe that Jesus died for all sins. They believe he died only for Adam's sin and that took out the worst-case scenario for everyone. Then, whatever you do as a Mormon (rack up points thru temple stuff and other good behavior) or non-Mormon (be nice or not as nice) lands you in one of various places (in a harem, on a new earth, as a new god with a harem, for example). So, if a Mormon, I guess you should "do more".
Just a couple thoughts.
bebu
PS: BTW I'm a Christian, not a Mormon, and as such think he did die for my sins. I find it very relevent.
Do I think Jesus died for my sins? Absolutely not.
I think he died to cancel out the original sin of Adam . He replaced all the animal sacrifices that were required under the mosaic law, in fact breached the gap between God and man . He must have been a prophet since rather than talking about the jews being delivered from Rome like the good old days, he said that Rome would destroy jerusalem and the temple there would be no stone left on a stone . It certainly is some interesting stuff to look at . The problem I have is that most "christians" are about worthless anyway even tho they claim to believe and talk the talk most do not walk the walk but are miserable hypocrites.
bebu:
It is funny how the concept of sin (moral failure) is understood, at least in a general sense, by people everywhere. We usually see it very clearly in others (especially leaders) and denounce it roundly, and that's not necessarily a bad thing at all.
Agreed. A "sin" is something which violates the rights of others. It is a form of negative behaviour. There is no meaningful sense in which someone can be "born into sin". To be a sinner, you actually have to do something bad to somebody.
However, it's a case of cognitive dissonance when we begin to suspect we may be tainted as well as those guys; how do we resolve that?
By making restitution for the sins that we have committed.
Until you finally get to that point, the gospel really looks irrelevent.
It still looks irrelevant to me. The idea of Jesus dying for our sins is not fully formed in the gospel accounts anyway.
PS: BTW I'm a Christian, not a Mormon, and as such think he did die for my sins. I find it very relevent.
I still don't get how someone could die for your sins. What could that mean? Could someone a hundred years ago have been beaten up for my crimes? Could I cut my finger off so that future generations don't have to pay parking fines? Is there something else in your belief that raises it above the absurdity of these examples?
:I still don't get how someone could die for your sins. What could that mean? Could someone a hundred years ago have been beaten up for my crimes? Could I cut my finger off so that future generations don't have to pay parking fines? Is there something else in your belief that raises it above the absurdity of these examples?
I guess it's part of the religious mysticism prevalent at that time that you have to kill to have your sins forgiven just as Jews would kill rams to have their sins forgiven. When Christianity moved this sort of magic to the metaphysical dimension, many people took it for granted, because it sounded familiar anyway. Most if not all mysticisms are absurd and based on similar magical thinking. Oh, yes they differ as to whether you should kill sheep, bleed cats to death, or wait for some god-sent victim to be killed in order to be saved. The funny thing is they all claim to be the only true mysticism, and denounce all the others as false. And I'm sure that by suggesting a common denominator to different mysticisms I've managed to 'offend' the religious feelings of many posters here.
For which I apologize.
Pole
I don't believe that jesus dying for sins is a go to paradise free card . The gospel does say that " Through one man sin entered the world and through another the means for forgiveness of sin" . In effect it's the excercising faith in Jesus as the messiah that gives us the grace not soley the act of his death . I think the story gets more intriquing with the promise of being treated as Jesus brother and sharing with him in kingdom power .
I do not believe in original sin so I do not believe he died for my sins. I believe that Christ was crucified for political reasons. It doesn't change his message though.
I look at it like the movie Yellow Submarine. The Blue Meanies silenced Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club band by enclosing them inside a glass dome. Then they dropped blue apples on everybody's head and turned Pepperland into a world of depression. Then came the Beatles, an older guy and No Where Man, in the Yellow Submarine. Ringo took the hole from his pocket (picked up in the sea of holes) and placed it on the dome. The music began to play. The colors started coming back. People were happy.
Someone hijacked our earth and her inhabitants. A lot of very sad and awful things have happened. Jesus came to save us from some sort of Blue Meanie, and from ourselves.
heathen:
In effect it's the excercising faith in Jesus as the messiah that gives us the grace not soley the act of his death.
To continue my analogy, then, if people in the future have faith that I cut off my finger, can they be absolved of parking tickets?
