Jesus

by Honesty 38 Replies latest jw friends

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    To continue my analogy, then, if people in the future have faith that I cut off my finger, can they be absolved of parking tickets?

    The analogy is not quite right because it ignores the ancient legal concept of vicarious expiation, in which the guilt of a crime can be transferred onto a third party. This is the basis of the sacrificial cult, in which a person could atone for legal infractions through the offering of scapegoats and other animals. The logic of sacrifice is not to please an angry god but to offer an innocent substitute that can legally bear the guilt that one would otherwise pay the penalty for (i.e. through lex talionis).

    This legal provision was then utilized during the Exile as an ground for hope for the restoration of Judah. The Deuteronomistic view of history shared by the exilic prophets explained the destruction of Jerusalem and the humiliation of the Exile as punishment for crimes committed by the nation and the sufferings of the exile community were construed as expiatory for the nation as a whole. Deutero-Isaiah symbolized their sufferings through the figure of the Suffering Servant, who is described as justifying the rest of the nation by "taking their faults on himself" (Isaiah 53:11), thereby giving reason for expecting a full restoration of Israel (ch. 54). But the hopes were not realized, and instead Jerusalem came to be punished by an even worse persecution during the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The author of Daniel explained the apparent failure of eschatological hopes; the seventy years of Jeremiah was in reality supposed to be "seventy weeks of years" (i.e. 490 years) which were decreed for "putting an end to transgression, for placing the seals on sin, for expiating crime" (Daniel 9:24). This provided the perfect means for offering solace for the Maccabean martyrs who were innocent of any crime but who were put to death for refusing to turn away from the Law. Their deaths were not in vain, but allowed the nation as a whole to repay its legal debt for sinning before the Exile. Such martyrs are "purified and made white" (11:35) through their sufferings and they "make the many righteous" (12:3), a phrase that is a clear allusion to Isaiah 53:11. Thus, such martyrs were viewed collectively as the Suffering Servant of Deutero-Isaiah, and the promised blessings were faciliated by their sufferings. The martyrs themselves would also share in the blessings, for Daniel has added a belief in resurrection to the eschatological hope (Daniel 12:2-3). That this view of the Maccabean martyrs furnished the substance of the NT views of Jesus' death as expiation can be seen from the following passage from 4 Maccabees:

    "These them having consecrated themselves for the sake of God, are now honored not only with this distinction but also by the fact that through them our enemies did not prevail against our nation, since they became as it were a ransom for the sin of our nation. Through the blood of these righteous ones and through the propitiation of their death the divine providence rescued Israel, which had been shamefully treated...Those men who surrendered their bodies to suffering for piety's sake were in return not only admired by mankind but were also deemed worthy of the divine portion. And it was because of them that our nation enjoyed peace, they revived the observance of the Law in their land and repulsed their enemies' rage. And the tyrant Antiochus was punished on earth and continues to suffer punishment in death" (4 Maccabees 17:20-22, 18:3-5).

    By the first century AD, eschatological hopes of a restored Israel were still not realized and hence the popularity of expectations of a messianic deliverer who would bring about these blessings. While different groups has different ideas of what the ideal messiah would be (i.e. as a militaristic Joshua figure, as a legal Moses figure, as a priestly Levi figure, etc.), some early Christians viewed Jesus as an expiatory messiah, who would bring about the blessings through giving his life as an expiation for sins, just as the martyrs did in Daniel and 4 Maccabees, and just as the Suffering Servant did in Deutero-Isaiah. Since the early Christian community included many Gentile believers, the new idea was that Jesus died not just for Israel but for all mankind...Gentiles included. How exactly this expiation worked varied from author to author, and not all writers viewed Jesus' death in expiatory terms (and the concept of a "ransom" is actually a distinctly different theory). But those that did not only utilized the Suffering Servant theme to describe the importance of Jesus' death but also took the symbolism literally as a prophecy of Jesus himself. 1 Peter 2:21-25 contains four seperate allusions to the Suffering Servant poem ("There had been no perjury in his mouth," Isaiah 53:9, 1 Peter 2:22; "He was bearing our faults in his own body," Isaiah 53:12, 1 Peter 2:24; "through his wounds you have been healed," Isaiah 53:5, 1 Peter 2:24; "You have gone astray like sheep," Isaiah 53:6, 1 Peter 2:25), and the gospels are similarly filled with references to Isaiah 53. Some examples:

    "This was to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah: 'He took our sicknesses away and carried our diseases for us' (Matthew 8:16-17; cf. Isaiah 53:4).
    "Because I tell you these words of scripture have to be fulfilled in me: 'He let himself be taken for a criminal' (Luke 22:37; cf. Isaiah 53:12).

    In fact, even the plot and specific scenes in the gospels are based on the Suffering Servant and OT laws on the scapegoat ritual. Thus Jesus was silent "like a lamb that is led to the slaughter-house, never opening its mouth" when he was being accused (Matthew 26:63; cf. Isaiah 53:7), and like Jesus the scapegoat ritual included a crowning of red wool on the victim's head and being put among thorns (cf. the scarlet/purple robe and the crown of thorns), and being spat upon and pierced with a reed (cf. especially Barnabas 7:7-11, which is most explicitly based on scapegoat traditions in Leviticus 16, and the Gospel of Peter). Even the hand-washing scene with Pilate and the mob in Matthew 27:24-25 is based on the expiatory sacrifice described in Deuteronomy 21:6-8 LXX.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek



    LittleToe:

    If you're omnipotent / omnipresent, how is it possible to be internally inconsistent?



    It's impossible for any known entity to be internally inconsistent in its nature. Reality is non-contradictory. Something cannot have self-contradictory properties. Omnipotence may include the ability to be something and simultaneously not be that thing, although I don't really see how.

    Further, how/why would you attempt to prove yourself as consistent to a being that is not omnipotent / omnipresent?

    By showing no contradictions. Normally, this would not be necessary as it's quite possible to be completely consistent and entirely fictitious. It is not, however, possible to be real and to be contradictory. No real entity can have properties that are mutually exclusive.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    My wife was real contradictory

  • lilybird
    lilybird

    leolaia..Thanks.. I always learn so much from your posts..

  • anewme
    anewme

    That is soooo sweet! FunkyDerek said he would die for all of us. He'd be pissed but he would do it!
    What a guy I tell you!


    I believe that Jesus believed he died for our sins and for that I thank him.

  • bebu
    bebu
    I still don't get how someone could die for your sins. What could that mean? Could someone a hundred years ago have been beaten up for my crimes? Could I cut my finger off so that future generations don't have to pay parking fines? Is there something else in your belief that raises it above the absurdity of these examples?

    It would not follow to cut your finger to pay off some else's future parking fees. But if you knew your son would need to get bailed out of jail in the future or pay for attorneys fees, you could invest in a trust fund of sorts for that, even if he was unaware of what you were doing and why. The day your son needed to pay off the parking fee or pay for the attorney, he would find that he could do it, even if you were no longer living; or, even if he were in jail for your murder. One interesting thing is that since most of us haven't murdered anyone, we feel that our debts can all be paid by restitution. But that is not so. How do you restore security to a child who has been molested? How do you restore all the lost years to your family for dragging them around door-to-door? Or apologize for harsh words to someone who has since died or moved too far away to find? How many people would want to pay the bill (including penalties) for taxes owed, which they had not paid for many years? Restitution is a band aid which helps many situations, but not the final solution. And if you have sinned against God in any fashion, how do you make restitution to HIM?? It's pretty astronomical. Hitler couldn't make up for millions of lives with his own nasty one. He couldn't die but once, and even so, his death would be simply justice, and still unable to restore a single victim's life. But God is life, and is the source of life. And He is the only one who could really pay a debt of 'life' because it is His economy; that is, that he alone could pay into a trust fund for a just requirement as this. Therefore, if the wages of sin is death, only God could pay down against that wage, as He is the only one with unlimited resources (as well as the source) of life. Another thought. Muslims and Jews would not accept a pig as an animal sacrifice. And a diseased animal was also not accepted as a sacrifice. Every animal, however, is innocent of sin, even a pig. So a pig would make a worthier sacrifice to God than a sinful man, perhaps. (I wonder if their being 'worthier' is one reason why God asked men to bring animals, and not men for sacrifices. ...Besides, having a sinful man killed is hardly a sacrifice so much as it is justice. And pure justice would require for us all to be killed...) Anyway... a sinless man is a perfect sacrifice. So if Christ's blood has no comparison in worth anywhere and if men have become in some ways like Gollum (spiritually), then such high value can 'buy' the whole lot of us. Pole mentions that this is like magic. It is similar, but not quite the same imo. I realize it is strange to think how there could be such a marriage between cultured/sophisticated teachings and primitive/magical/earthy sacrifice, and both relate to justice. Maybe we are earth and heaven, both, because we can commonly respond on both levels. 2 cents... bebu

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    bebu:

    It would not follow to cut your finger to pay off some else's future parking fees. But if you knew your son would need to get bailed out of jail in the future or pay for attorneys fees, you could invest in a trust fund of sorts for that, even if he was unaware of what you were doing and why. The day your son needed to pay off the parking fee or pay for the attorney, he would find that he could do it, even if you were no longer living; or, even if he were in jail for your murder.

    That's a much more sensible system, but is not analagous to the idea of Jesus' sacrifice. The scenario I described - absurd as it is - fits much better.

    One interesting thing is that since most of us haven't murdered anyone, we feel that our debts can all be paid by restitution. But that is not so. How do you restore security to a child who has been molested? How do you restore all the lost years to your family for dragging them around door-to-door? Or apologize for harsh words to someone who has since died or moved too far away to find? How many people would want to pay the bill (including penalties) for taxes owed, which they had not paid for many years? Restitution is a band aid which helps many situations, but not the final solution.

    So forgiving all these sins wholesale is a better way? How do you figure? How does that restore security to a molested child? "It's OK Timmy, Jesus has forgiven that bad man so you can spend all eternity in heaven with him."

    And if you have sinned against God in any fashion, how do you make restitution to HIM?? It's pretty astronomical.

    There is nothing we can do to harm or violate the rights of an omnipotent being. Even if there we, could he not choose to forgive us without pretending to die?

    Hitler couldn't make up for millions of lives with his own nasty one. He couldn't die but once, and even so, his death would be simply justice, and still unable to restore a single victim's life. But God is life, and is the source of life. And He is the only one who could really pay a debt of 'life' because it is His economy; that is, that he alone could pay into a trust fund for a just requirement as this. Therefore, if the wages of sin is death, only God could pay down against that wage, as He is the only one with unlimited resources (as well as the source) of life.

    So God pays a debt to himself, to set up a "trust fund" in his own made-up economy, so that anyone who believes this can be forgiven for sins that they didn't necessarily commit? And this makes sense to you?

    Another thought. Muslims and Jews would not accept a pig as an animal sacrifice. And a diseased animal was also not accepted as a sacrifice. Every animal, however, is innocent of sin, even a pig. So a pig would make a worthier sacrifice to God than a sinful man, perhaps. (I wonder if their being 'worthier' is one reason why God asked men to bring animals, and not men for sacrifices. ...Besides, having a sinful man killed is hardly a sacrifice so much as it is justice. And pure justice would require for us all to be killed...) Anyway... a sinless man is a perfect sacrifice. So if Christ's blood has no comparison in worth anywhere and if men have become in some ways like Gollum (spiritually), then such high value can 'buy' the whole lot of us.

    Truly, truly bizarre.

    Pole mentions that this is like magic. It is similar, but not quite the same imo. I realize it is strange to think how there could be such a marriage between cultured/sophisticated teachings and primitive/magical/earthy sacrifice, and both relate to justice. Maybe we are earth and heaven, both, because we can commonly respond on both levels.

    Where do you get this stuff?!

    2 cents...

    Overpriced at that.

  • bebu
    bebu

    2 cents is overpriced, we both agree here.

    Sin is not merely against other people, but against God who created them. As a mom I train my kids one way... but my boys can't resist doing what they please to each other. The result is they end up fighting like badgers, but that they are also in trouble with ME for disobeying. To themselves, they feel totally justified for whacking or calling each other rude names, and each feels angry if I should move to punish him (though they are greatly satisfied when I punish the other). They are not always like this, of course, but harmony is not always here.

    My point is that we do indeed sin against God. The world isn't the place he intended it to be. Sometimes it is hard to imagine that the "wages of sin are death", but it is certainly so spiritually. The natural result of evil is destruction. But it is interesting that everyone still maintains a very keen sense of justice--even while sinning.

    Jesus told a parable about a man who was forgiven a debt of millions, but refused to forgive another the debt of a few dollars' worth. Even a molester can be forgiven (though I would never trust one alone with a child for the rest of his life here). Most of us feel superior to molesters, but I doubt any one of us would feel comfortable with allowing every private thought we've ever had be laid out in front of everyone. I wouldn't. But the funny thing is that God seems willing to welcome repentent molesters into heaven to live with HIM. Along with the tax collectors, sinners, harlots, and thieves. God said that even sins as scarlet could be made as white as snow.

    There is nothing we can do to harm or violate the rights of an omnipotent being. Even if there we, could he not choose to forgive us without pretending to die?

    I don't know how you are so sure that God cannot be sinned against. But your second question is good. How do you think could God do it and let us know it was done?

    So God pays a debt to himself, to set up a "trust fund" in his own made-up economy, so that anyone who believes this can be forgiven for sins that they didn't necessarily commit

    What "made-up" economy? God didn't "make up" life. He is life. We have a certain quality of life, but it is nothing like God's.

    If no one has committed any sins, there is no problem for them to worry about. It's only for ones who have committed sin. You may not be in trouble, funky, so don't worry.

    BTW--I have not committed murder (yet! give me time! ), but I have been hateful, vengeful, and too-creative in my thoughts about harming or even killing others (not so much now as when I was young and 'innocent'). The seeds of nasty actions still crop up in my thoughts on occasion. Unfortunately.

    ;Truly, truly bizarre.

    Actually, I did try to edit this because it did sound bizarre to me too, after I had posted it. But after an hour of editing and then losing it all to an "Error" message, I gave up.

    What I was driving at was determining value, especially when it comes to finding something acceptable to God. Certainly sheep, pigs, goats, cows, chickens, rabbits, dogs and cats all share a certain level of value to us. If a man murdered a man today (or then), giving a goat as payment doesn't fly. The value of a goat's life is considered much less than a man's. And yet, on a very different level, an animal is 'better' than men in that it doesn't sin--it doesn't have 'moral failures', just nasty habits . So oddly enough, even pigs, though rejected as a kosher animal by Jews and Muslims, have an edge in value over a grown, sinful man (or woman). I assume that's why God allowed for sacrifice with them.

    A perfect sacrifice is like a royal flush: moral perfection (the 'straight'), the human species ( the 'flush'), and divine intervention (10,J,Q,K,A). That is, Christ.

    Where do you get this stuff?!

    Thinking too much about sex perhaps. A very sublime thing! ...Or is it just animal nature??

    bebu

  • itsallgoodnow
    itsallgoodnow

    Jesus didn't really really die. Isn't he supposed to be up in heaven with his Daddy now? So, what's all this talk about ultimate sacrifice? He didn't sacrifice jack if he's still up there doing his thing now. It's not like he was supposed to be banished into oblivion like "Adam" and "Eve", so it's not an equal trade off, is it?

    just my 2 cents

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