First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 51 Replies latest jw friends

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  Amazing1914

  Hello all, As I am completing a paper for BRCI, I found something quite interesting. The very first mention of the "Catholic Church" was made in the year 107, in St. Ignatius letter to the Smyrnaeans. St. Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch for forty-years, being appointed by the Apostle Peter. St. Ignatius was also a student of St. John the Apostle. Here is a clip from his letter:

  Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop .
  See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper. Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

  The Holy Spirit: I have also learned in my study on the Holy Spirit, which I am conducting for a paper and a talk at BRCI this year, that the Trinity was well developed and documented long before the Council of Nicea in 325. It was well established by the year 180 or earlier. The "economic" Trinity was established even earlier. In fact, I am utterly stunned by what I have been able to find on these topics. (The economic "Trinity" as scholars call it, is not a detailed theological or ontological definition, but a functional development.) Suprise or No Surprise: The Watchtower Society has been extremely dishonest about the history of the early church, what it believed, and practiced. The early church was far more like the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Catholic churches of today, and somewhat like the Angelican, Lutheran.ith a dash of Evangelical. There is nothing in early early Christian teaching which resembles anything like what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and practice. Also, my paper will show how the Watchtower Society clearly lied in its brochure, "Should You believe in the Trinity?" If people would spend just a few days studying the early church, they would never consider joining Jehovah's Witnesses. I will let you all know when my paper is ready. It has taken nearly a year to develop this project. I look forward to your comments.

  Jim Whitney
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  serendipity

  I'd be curious as to how the letter read in the original Greek. This is dated in 107, not long after the letters of John and Revelation was supposedly written. How does this message match those books?
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  Amazing1914

  Hi Serendipity,

  I only have the english translations on line. However, scholars from all backgrounds have authenticated the seven letters of St. Ignatius that he wrote on his way to Rome. He was taken from Antioch by Roman Emperor Trajan. The Emperor condemned St. Ignatius to death for continuing to spread Christianity. Ignatius is one of the solid historical Fathers of the early Church [Ante-Nicene]. He died a martyr in the arena in Rome, being eaten by lions.

  He sounds far more like a Catholic Priest in his letters than any other religion. None of the early Church Fathers sound like Jehovah's Witnesses. They all resemble Catholic Priests and Bishops. You can read his letter to the Smyrnaeans by clicking here:

  http://biblestudy.churches.net/CCEL/FATHERS2/ANF01/ANF0121.HTM#P2123_357530

  Thanks, Jim Whitney
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  lovelylil

  Jim,

  I look forward to reading your paper on the Holy Spirit but I hope it is not going to be one of these "The Catholic Church is the only true church" papers. There is no true religion today. The church is the body of Christ and is bound together by Holy Spirit. Jesus did not start the Catholic religion, nor the baptist, nor the Jehovahs' Witnesses, nor any other religion. Every church in this world, while there are good people in them, have their own share of commiting atrocities against people, including the Catholic and the JWs. All of them.

  I am bringing this up because I just have this feeling by the comments you leave that you only support Catholic or break away churches that teach Catholic doctrines. It does not matter what the early church fathers or bishops say, if you are a Christian and should be following Christ. Christ does not mention the Catholic church nor any others as being the true church. As a matter of fact, he told the Samaritan women at the well (See John for the best account of this) that one day all will worship God in spirit and truth and not in Jeruselem nor on the mountain where her forefathers have worshiped in the past. Becuase worship of God does not depend on where you worship him or the building. Paul expounded on this in Athens (see Acts of the Apostles) when he made this statement "God does not dwell in man made temples". None of the Apostles after Jesus started a religion either. Paul spoke against making sects by saying we are following a certain person (such as Paul or Cephas, or any others that teach us about Christ). He said Christ is divided in that way. We as Christians should only be worshiping and following Christ. And beyond some basic doctrines, he did not give many rules that people have to adher to nor say they needed to belong to a certain group. Remember that the business of starting different religions with their own creeds came AFTER the death of the Apostles. Please do some research on the origin of the word church or ecclesia and you will see it is the people, not the buildings, not the man-made doctrines that came after Christ. Anywhere that there is man who establishes a religion HE feels is true, there is injustice, false teachings, repression of fellow man, slaughters in God's name, and many other atrocities. (man dominates man to his injury, like the bible says)

  Remember: Religion Divides People - The work of the Holy Spirit is to Unite us in Christ.
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  Amazing1914

  Lovelylil,

  If you have ever read any of my historical works on this site, you will see that I do not get into pissing contests about whose church is the right one. While I do affiliate with Greek Orthodox (part of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Communion) I do not impose my views on others in that regard. [See the screen name "Amazing" in the member profile, and review some of my approximate 4,000 posts.]

  I am engaged in academic work, both in my personal life and in university. I am as stunned as anyone with respect to what I am finding in historical works of early Christianity. I am taking an unbiased review of all the early Church Fathers. If their teachings and doctrines had resembled Watchtower or Baptist, or Mormon theology, I would report that situation - though, I would be even more surprised.

  I just felt that some of the more academicly inclined, here on JWD, might appreciate what the early Church really taught. I cannot take a biased view for or against the Roman Catholic Church, simply because there is no way to do that unless I stoop to the levels of dishonest reporting, ala Watchtower style. I cannot judge and say that there is or is not a true Christian institution today that is the result of the early Church. All I can say is that what I am reading resembles what specific institutions today ... whatever they may be. Each person must make their own decisions in this regard. I have no interest in arguing the points. I agree with you about the Holy Spirit uniting Christians.

  Thanks, Jim Whitney
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  plmkrzy

  Thanks Amazing for the thread. I book marked it for later reading. I've always been fascinated with the Trinity Doctrine. What it REALLY is/was supposed to mean.

  plm

  hope this doesn't double post. I hit that drn submit button and nothing happens. Ill hit it again
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  lovelylil

  Jim,

  You are correct that nothing in the early church history is like what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach today. But my point is that this is true about most religions. Because there is very little in way of doctrine that the early christians had to believe in order to be called a Christian. Since the time the Apostles died and until today, there are so many man made doctrines that many people who once were Christians have lost their faith totally. I will say this though about the Catholic Church, when I was in it I had more freedom then as a Jehovahs Witness. But I left for very similar reasons that I left the Witnesses for. (unbiblical practices). Chrisitanity was very simple in its true day. I just wanted to make the point that no church today is like the early church in its simplicity and lack of many doctrines. Man is the one who started all that and it is very pervasive thru out all the major religions today.

  You are also correct that the early church fathers had views different from the Witnesses about who Christ was. As I posted before and stated, he was not a created being. I did the research all the way back to the Arian beliefs on that one.

  I just wanted to let you know, and you may not mean to sound this way, but it does seem like you favor certain groups and are trying to maybe prove that the Catholic Church teachings are closer to the early church than any other. Or, at least it seemed that way to me anyway. And you will have a hard time proving this without going by the "early church fathers". But remember they are only men, although they may have been good men. Christ's teachings found in the bible are the true basis for Christian doctrine. And you have to admit, there are many doctrines in all the churches that were not practiced by early Christians.

  When I was in College, I worked on many research papers and I am still a researcher. And I learned in my journalism classes that everyone is biased when working on a research paper. You cannot totally remove all the bias because of human tendency. I know that when I did my Michael the Archangel research, I got together a team of five others to read it over with a fine tooth comb to make sure I was looking objectively at every scripture because we all have long held beliefs. I try to do this now too as I write articles for a Christian paper in India. I was wondering if you are doing that too because you mentioned the other night about having a focus group of some type? I said I did not have time to help with this but now you have peaked my interest. If you still want people for this, put me on your list. If you don't mind me asking really hard questions? I believe every arguement has at least four sides.

  By the way, in college I studied to be a lawyer. Changed my mind though because I am too honest for that. Sorry if this statement offends anyone. I am thinking about going back to school to study Religion.
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  poodlehead

  Thank you for your post.

  I have a few questions maybe you have come across in your studies. From what I have learned the Catholic Church became a orgainized religion about 300 years after christ? I hope I got that one right. This is Interesting to se that it was named but not a official religion much earlier. From what you are saying, this faith some 100 odd years after christ was similar to what the Catholic church is today. Are you saying them that the way the early christians worshiped after christ death was most simular to the Catholic church? If so can you give me examples. Such as did they have closed confession (rather than face to face), unmarried priests, relics of worship, worship of saints and or Mary, communion on a weekly basis, did they call themselves father and were there Nuns?

  I had always thoght that many of the customes of the Catholic Church were brought in over the years. And most likely the church was different in it's first years in comparision to what it is today. But I have no evidence to back that up.

  So here is my questions again. Is the Catholic church the same today as it was in its early years. And did the early christian prior to the Catholic church have any worship simular to the Catholic church of today. And how so.

  (See I am not stupid if I can get you to do my homework for me). Which reminds me what information would you recomend reading on this subject?

  Thanks for the info
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  lovelylil

  poodle head,

  Here are some scriptures that may help you. These show the early christians beliefs when the Apostles were still alive:

  Christ is the only mediator between God and Man - this would negate prayer to saints see 1Timothy 2:5

  You are to call no one on earth by the term "Father", (in a religious sense that is not paternal) except God. See Matthew 23:9

  They did not have to abstain from foods on certain days (Lent) and were not forbidden to marry. (no vow of celebacy. I am not talking about the priesthood for the Israelite nation, but this was done away with in Christianity) See 1 Timothy 4:3

  They were to have no idols in worship. This was first brought out in Mosaic Laws but Christ did say we are to worship in Spirit and Truth and there are no accounts of early christians using relics or idols for worship. See Exodus 34:17, Lev. 19:4, 26:1, Duet. 32.21.

  Hope these bible texts help. Lilly
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  Amazing1914

  Hi Lovelylil,

  I just wanted to let you know, and you may not mean to sound this way, but it does seem like you favor certain groups and are trying to maybe prove that the Catholic Church teachings are closer to the early church than any other. Or, at least it seemed that way to me anyway.

  I am going to defer to the idea that you may be a little sensitive on this part of the topic. Nothing in my posts suggests what I favor.

  And you will have a hard time proving this without going by the "early church fathers". But remember they are only men, although they may have been good men. Christ's teachings found in the bible are the true basis for Christian doctrine. And you have to admit, there are many doctrines in all the churches that were not practiced by early Christians.

  It is these men that compiled the Bible you read, and trust. It is these men who decided which books were reliable, authentic, credible, and most of all, canonical. Are you saying that when it came to compiling a Bible, they were some how better than the same men they were when they wrote their letters? The Bible did not exist as we know it for several hundred years after Christ. Even the original letters written by the Apostles and disciples were not completed until the early first century. Maybe you need to be aware that I do not necesarily believe in what you call the Bible. What the early Christians had to rely upon was oral teachings, Church traditions, and occassional letters if they were among the fortunate.

  When I was in College, I worked on many research papers and I am still a researcher. And I learned in my journalism classes that everyone is biased when working on a research paper. You cannot totally remove all the bias because of human tendency.

  This is my second time in the Diploma factory. Yes, I am aware of the bias game. However, one must admit that if the observer has no standing vested interest other than finding facts, then the work will be as close to unbias as possible. Also, I am submitting my work for critical peer review, and will humbly and honestly accept and incorporate the criticism. I have no vested interest except to get to the actual history. I am stunned by what I am finding, but that is to be expected. Nonetheless, I am reporting the results. If the results proved that the Holy Spirit were a little green man from Mars, I would report that as well, because it would be what I found.

  Lawyers: That is my ultimate goal. My main focus is contract law, though I would enjoy litigating in criminal law. Many people object to lawyers being dishonest. In real estate I see them as deal killers. In engineering, I saw and experienced them as buffoons. However, what most folks seem to forget is that lawyers are not supposed to be focused on honesty, but on advocacy. When I faced Watchtower (non-JW) lawyers during my testimony I did not see them as supporting child molesters simply because they represented the Watchtower Society. Rather, I saw them as paid advocates doing their job. [I say this with some reservation toward the Watchtower in-house counsel who are mind-numbed robots sent to school by the Society and have never really done good legal work.

  I was wondering if you are doing that too because you mentioned the other night about having a focus group of some type? I said I did not have time to help with this but now you have peaked my interest. If you still want people for this, put me on your list.

  Okay, I will do that. I plan on sending out my draft copy for peer review sometime the first week to ten days into May. If you have time, feel free to send me whatever comments you have. I will do this only by e-mail, since I want to finish the peer review before it is posted on a web site.

  Thanks, Jim Whitney