First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 51 Replies latest jw friends

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  lovelylil

  Poodlehead,

  I am sorry I forgot about addressing the communion on weekly basis. Christ did not give any specific instructions as to how many times you should take communion. Some do it annually at the anniversary of when he had the Last supper with his Diciples. But others wish to take it more often.

  Christ said as often as we do this, we keep proclaiming his death until he arrives. Some say because he says "as often as you do this", it means no specific number of times is given. There does seem to be some evidence that the early diciples at least did this weekly on their Sabbath that they observed still, at least for a time. I have not yet researched that far to give my opinion on either way. But, I think it is a matter left up to the individuals conscience. Lilly
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  Amazing1914

  Lovelylil and Poodlehead,

  I need to leave off my PC for a while, but I will address other points later on tomorrow. However, I will deal with this one point of difference mentioned by Lovelylil:

  Christ is the only mediator between God and Man - this would negate prayer to saints see 1Timothy 2:5

  The Watchtower, and many fundamentalist Protestant groups, equate communication to Saints as asking Jesus to mediate for us. They are in serious error. The truth is that the early Christians, clear back to St. Igantius, St. Polycarp, and St. Ireneaus all taught what later became known as the "Apostles Creed" which stipulates as the basic creed of Christian teaching that one has "communion" with the saints. Talking to a Saint is not the same as asking for mediatorship. Christ's mediatorship has to do with his sacrifice and the New Covenant and salvation. It does not cut us off from talking (praying) to Saints. This is a myth.

  Otherwise, we would be precluded from fellowship with the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. Read: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. " 2 Corinthians 13:14 We cannot have fellowship with the Holy Spirit if we think that we are only allowed to pray to the Father. But, if communion with the Saints is also prohibited, then the entire early Church was wrong from day one, and the Christian belief that people have now is a myth.

  Do we commune with fellow Christians now? Does that mean we think that fellow Christians are somehow being asked to mediate for us when we ask them to pray for us, or keep us in their prayers or put us on prayer request? No. It is simple communication. So, by talking to a Saint, how am I doing anything any different than what the early Christians did, or what Christians do today do in praying for one another? There is absolutely no distinction, or at best a distinction without a difference. On what Biblical basis are we required to shun and ignore the Saints?

  Thanks, Jim Whitney
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  mustang

  might appreciate what the early Church really taught.

  Jim, As our discussions have indicated in the past I agree with the above and these:

  In fact, I am utterly stunned by what I have been able to find on these topics.

  If people would spend just a few days studying the early church, they would never consider joining Jehovah's Witnesses.

  It doesn't take very much looking to find total distortions in the "gospel from Brooklyn".

  The history of the early church is an extremely powerful tool to use on what has transpired since then. It is like a microscope and a searchlight combined.

  I cannot judge and say that there is or is not a true Christian institution today that is the result of the early Church.

  Hear, hear; I think that the biblically curious and really earnest truth-seeker should delve into this to the maximum extent possible; armed with knowledge of the evolution of the "early church" into "churches", they can make informed decisions. It is entirely possible to chart and steer your own religious destiny, with such knowledge. I do not believe that God would reject such diligent and individual efforts.

  Even should we have differences of opinion, I have observed that the "comparative anatomy" that we both do (from different directions) is very enlightening. "Carry on" & "keep up the good work".

  I have been "under the gun" and totally swamped for the last 2 months, but will hack out some time to contact you shortly.

  Mustang
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  jschwehm

  Hi Amazing:

  It was doing research such as yours that lead me to the Catholic Church. I remember reading Justin Martyr where he describes how the early Church worships. It sounded an awful lot like the Catholic Mass.

  Also, one must remember that the Church came prior to the Bible.

  Jeff S.

  www.catholicxjw.com
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  Amazing1914

  Jeff,

  Also, one must remember that the Church came prior to the Bible.

  Amen - by about 400 years. You have an e-mail from me trough James C's group. I plan on posting the same on your talk group.

  Mustang, I look forward to talking to you. I knew you were busy, and have hoped you would pop out sometime. I will send you an e-mail tomorrow.

  Thanks, Jim Whitney
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  lovelylil

  Amazing,

  Did you know that there is evidence that the bible we have from the early church fathers may be missing books that the Apostles read from? I have several of these including the books of Enoch, Jashar, and Baruch. These three, among others are mentioned in the bible and the bible writers quoted from them. Although the early church fathers claimed they were historical only and not inspired, I feel if the Apostles and others that we know were God inspired used them, we should have the opportunity to use them also. I have the Didache too which is the teachings of the 12 Apostles. That is my point that the early Church Fathers decided what should constitute the bible we have today. Which there is evidence that at one time there were over 80 books in the Bible. But some where taken out. The early church fathers took out Enoch because they favored Revelation. Someone mentioned the other day and I think it is true also that the early church fathers were biased. they also chose books to make up the bible as we know it today that they felt were in agreement with their beliefs.

  I only mentioned about the bias because you mentioned several churches (the other day) that you felt had Holy Spirit and while I agree that Cults do not have Holy Spirit which can be attested to by the scriptures that give us what to look for to see if someone has the spirit, I would just like to get the point out there that it is not the religious institutions that have Holy Spirit but rather the individual people. At Pentecost Holy Spirit was poured out individually on each Christian. That is the same today. And I know of many Christians of all denominations that have Holy Spirit and are proving it by their works.

  I am with Poodlehead thought that it seems you are saying in this thread that the Catholic Church is the closet to early Christianity. I will even disagree that the Catholic Church has always had the same doctrines as Poodle stated, they have added in many practices thru out the years. Martin Luther made that very plain in his treatise against the Church. I have ready many, many books about the Catholic churches and we cannot even say they are closet to the early Christians. Please read my last post to Poodle for some evidence of additions made by this Church.

  I am also just saying that NO religious institution today can claim that they are the ones closet to early Christianity. Because Christ did not start a religion. As a matter of fact, he introduced a whole new idea in doing things which was to get rid of the institutions and heirarchy and go right thru him (our only high priest) to God. And worship in Spirit and Truth without the confinement of religious structures and man made creeds. Remember why the Pharisees wanted him dead? They said that the people would listen to him and they will loose their positions. For all those who were made free in Christ, the religious institutions have no hold on us any longer. Not to say we do not need fellowship with some in these institutions but we are not tied to them any longer. We are free agents in christ. and we can worship at home, at work, in the park, in our bedroom, in a church institution if we wish, or not.

  Looking forward to your paper.
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  lovelylil

  
  

  Can someone point me to where Christ Jesus said communion with the saints means we can pray to them? Can anyone show scriptually where anyone in the early christian church prayed to a saint? Did not Jesus give us the model prayer and tell us to pray to our heavenly father? Christ also says that "whatever you ask me, in my name", I will give it. If I can ask Christ for something in his name, why would I ask Saint Peter, or Paul or Mary? Jesus is the only High Priest, our mediator and we are subject to him. The intercession of the saints is a man made doctrine not supported by any scripture.

  Please do not think I am siding with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I am not a witness anymore. Nor, did I agree with a lot of their teachings. But I was a Catholic and do understand the Catholic faith. All churches have written thier own histories and have tried to say theirs alone was founded on the Apostles and is closest to the early Christians. I have had Baptists, JWs, Mormons, Catholics and many others claim the say thing. There is no evidence in the Bible at all that says a Pope or anyone else can make someone a Saint. God is the one that tells you wether or not you are a Saint (begotten by Holy Spirit). No where are we ever told to pray to saints. When the Apostle John bowed to even an Angel the Angel told him not to do that because he should only bow down to God.

  Christ says "I am the way, and the life and the truth, no one gets to the father except through me".
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  JeffT

  Two thoughts: One, I'm in no way surprised that the WTBS has early church history messed up.

  2) It is important to remember that "catholic" means "universal" I think it is in that sense that this quote uses the word. As you pointed out, the "Roman Catholic Church" (which is neither Roman nor Catholic) did not exist at the time.
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  mustang

  "First mention of the Catholic Church"

  
  

  
  Bravo, Jim!!!

  This is momentous. So, from circa 107 to circa 325 it went from "a feeling" to "more than a feeling" to "official" to practically "the law of the land". With all that, the REAL EYE-OPENER is the amount of politics involved, both in the church and secular arenas.

  "They" say follow the money: in this case follow the politics. When did the "oil and water" of church and secular arrangements become an emulsion? (Oh, I just can't do without metaphors, similes and the like; that one was particularly wicked but irresistible.)

  On the "home front", there was a layoff; I survived but got transferred. The new duties are quite tedious and very onerous. I prefer biblical research.

  Cheers,

  Mustang

  
  
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  inquirer

  lovelylil
  
  Jim,
  
  
  
  
  
  I am bringing this up because I just have this feeling by the comments you leave that you only support Catholic or break away churches that teach Catholic doctrines. It does not matter what the early church fathers or bishops say, if you are a Christian and should be following Christ. Christ does not mention the Catholic church nor any others as being the true church. As a matter of fact, he told the Samaritan women at the well (See John for the best account of this) that one day all will worship God in spirit and truth and not in Jeruselem nor on the mountain where her forefathers have worshiped in the past. Becuase worship of God does not depend on where you worship him or the building. Paul expounded on this in Athens (see Acts of the Apostles) when he made this statement "God does not dwell in man made temples". None of the Apostles after Jesus started a religion either. Paul spoke against making sects by saying we are following a certain person (such as Paul or Cephas, or any others that teach us about Christ). He said Christ is divided in that way. We as Christians should only be worshiping and following Christ. And beyond some basic doctrines, he did not give many rules that people have to adher to nor say they needed to belong to a certain group. Remember that the business of starting different religions with their own creeds came AFTER the death of the Apostles. Please do some research on the origin of the word church or ecclesia and you will see it is the people, not the buildings, not the man-made doctrines that came after Christ. Anywhere that there is man who establishes a religion HE feels is true, there is injustice, false teachings, repression of fellow man, slaughters in God's name, and many other atrocities. (man dominates man to his injury, like the bible says)
  
  Remember: Religion Divides People - The work of the Holy Spirit is to Unite us in Christ.
  
  
  ______
  
  I'll just add something you missed: AMEN!