First mention of the Catholic Church

by Amazing1914 51 Replies latest jw friends

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  Leolaia

  Jim...I think Ignatius should be required reading for anyone who believes they can characterize what "early Christians believed".

  As for the phrase in question, here it is in its context:

  "Flee from divisions, as the beginning of evils. You must all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and follow the presbytery as you would the apostles; respect the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no one do anything that has to do with the church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop (or whomever he himself designates) is to be considered valid. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation (pléthos) be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church (katholiké ekklesia). It is not permissible either to baptize or to hold a love feast without the bishop. But whatever he approves is also pleasing to God, in order that everything you do may be trustworthy and valid" (Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).

  The main problem in interpreting the word katholiké is whether it has here its usual sense "universal" or the more technical sense "orthodox", which was dominant in third and fourth century AD texts. Since this was the first instance of the word in Christian literature, one could reasonably suppose a sense closer to the usual meaning. This was argued most clearly by JB Lightfoot in the 19th century and the lexicographical evidence shows that such universality was construed not in geographical terms but in terms of organic unity or completeness (as Schoedel phrases it). This builds on NT conceptions of the church (cf. also Didache 9:4, "Just as this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and then was gathered together and became one, so may your church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom"). The second-century gnostic Christians had a similar concept of the term; the adjective kotholikon denotes the "undivided" in the Treatise of Seth 57.26 in contrast to what is merikos "fragmentary". The context of the passage in Ignatius emphasizes the unity of the church from division, and the role of its leadership (the bishop, presbyters, deacons) in maintaining unity. The idea seems to be that holding meetings apart from the bishop puts one outside of the universality or totality of the church. If the word was used commonly in such a way, it is relatively easy to see how the later technical sense of "orthodox" arose.

  Note also in this passage the contrast between the local congregation (pléthos), led by the bishop, and the whole church, led by Jesus Christ. This also confirms that the sense in this passage is closer to "entire church," "complete church," "universal church" than "orthodox" church. The idea is that holding separate meetings locally apart from the bishop is like designating a Christian church outside of the body of Christ (which should be the church in its entirety).
• 

  Sheepish

  "Flee from divisions, as the beginning of evils. You must all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and follow the presbytery as you would the apostles; respect the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no one do anything that has to do with the church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop (or whomever he himself designates) is to be considered valid. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation (pléthos) be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church (katholiké ekklesia). It is not permissible either to baptize or to hold a love feast without the bishop. But whatever he approves is also pleasing to God, in order that everything you do may be trustworthy and valid" (Ignatius, Smyrnaeans 8:1-2).

  It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

  (Had to point out the change in the sentence structure between the lastest quote and the intial posting...don't know how that happened) Very interesting. I have never read Ignatius.

  My thoughts: where in the Bible is instruction to only have eucharist(or the word "eucharist" for that matter) under the authority of the bishop(which I understand to mean Elder) to be "valid"? Or a baptism or lovefeast.(Where does it encourage love feasts for that matter?)Sounds like this guy is making up his own rules for one reason or another.Just like theologians make up words like "trinity". Why do they feel the need to use other words? Were Jesus' words too simple and clear for them?

  Sincere men often become puffed up and self important, making rules and controlling things. Pharisees, "The Governing Body", even Martin Luther comes to mind. In the end he actually had someone put to death! Find the scriptural permission for that!

  I always understood the word "saint" to mean true believer (in that scripture reads that someone would ask for someone else to "Greet the saints" for them. (I'm pretty sure it was used in the old testament in some form or another-just don't remember the specific)Meaning I don't think when the word saint is used it refers to dead people who are awaiting resurrection like everyone else.

  I like that the point was made that believers were not instructed to build or buy buildings for their gatherings. From what I read they met in homes. When there was a large gathering they used a public forum, possibly renting(but who knows)

  .*steps up to her soapbox* It seems to me that is when a "church" first goes astray. They have a homegroup which grows, and instead of splitting into two homegroups impacting TWO neighborhoods, the thermometer goes up and they start to buy a place! Next thing you know, they have programs to utilize that empty building. Where is THAT in scripture? Life revolves around the clubhouse instead of being neighborhood-centric which puts the believer out where there are unbelievers, and able to help..Tithes go to building instead of to the poor, or to help widow & orphans, which as we all know is what Peter called "pure and undefiled religion".*clears throat, steps off soapbox*
• 

  toreador

  Interesting post Leolaia!

  Thanks,

  TOr
• 

  Amazing1914

  Sheepish,

  The New Testament Bible, as we know it, did not exist for the first 400 years of church history. All they had was tradition, word of mouth, some copies of letters and Hebrew schrolls if they attended Synagogue.

  Since Ignatius was so close to the Apostle John, being his direct student, I find it rather fascinating that he would make such statements.

  Also, it is rather interesting that he uses the term "Catholic Church" in the same terminology. Yes, everyone knows that the term "catholic" means universal. However, to associate that term with a specific "church" gave it a new flavor for me.

  Thanks, Jim W.
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  plmkrzy

  Also, it is rather interesting that he uses the term "Catholic Church" in the same terminology.

  My mom would sometimes refer to herself as a Catholic hehe , but for some reason it would fly right over most heads as though she was saying something offensive.
• 

  Star Moore

  Dear Jim... I am really looking forward to your paper.. I think, it's true that this was the beginning of the apostasy..for sure.. here's why:

  See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop.

  Jim, following the bishop, even as Jesus Christ follows the father! Put's the bishop right up there with God. OH, my God. Also, an anti-trinitarian point here. About the Jesus as a follower of the father.

  It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast;

  Oh, can't get baptized without the permission of the bishop...hmm, sounds familiar..

  The early church was far more like the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Catholic churches of today, and somewhat like the Angelican, Lutheran.ith a dash of Evangelical.

  Yes, maybe the early church, but not the church, the way Jesus and apostles wanted it.. not at all. Thanks, looking forward to the paper.
• 

  Amazing1914

  Hi Star,

  Your reaction to St. Ignatius words is understandbale given the abuse by the Watchtower Society. However, St. Ignatius was a friend of the Apostle John. He was groomed directly and appointed bishop of Antioch by the Apostle Peter. He was not likely to began some supposed "apostasy." The generalized "apostasy" claims by groups like the Mormons, the Watchtower, and the Adventists is done to give support for their own authority to exist ... to say that Jesus was really a liar, and that truth was missing for 1800 years until Churck Russell, or Joesph Smith were born to save us.

  Jesus promised to remain with the Church, that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church, and that the gates of Hell would not prevail over it. To come alonng in the 19th or 20th centuries and claim a generalized apostasy is to call Jesus a liar and condemn the Holy Spirit.

  The early Christians, including the Apostle Paul argued for recognition of legitimate Church authority, especially in the Bishop. UNfortunately, the Watchtower Society has done such a good job of destorying trust, that I fully sympathize with your reaction. In fact, among the reasons that I like the Eastern Orthodox is that they refuse to recognize Papal Monarchy.

  Also, context and culture is another problem. I will address that later on, but I need to get going.

  Thanks for your comments.

  Jim Whitney
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  lovelylil

  Jim,

  I agree with your point about the WT saying that there was no truth for 1900 years when Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would prevent that. I never could understand that belief, it was so strange. Also, I have a question about the term bishop. Is this not a term from the Catholic church? I thought only the title elder was biblical. Also, you mentioned your church does not believe in the heirarchy of the Roman Catholics. Does this include the Pope?
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  Satanus

  Thanks for making known the results of your research, jim. While my studies of early church history weren't as exhaustive as yours, my conclusions were quite similar. I am glad that i was not far off from you in this.

  S
• 

  Amazing1914

  Lovelylil & Satanus,

  Lovely,

  Also, I have a question about the term bishop. Is this not a term from the Catholic church? I thought only the title elder was biblical.

  The Greek word used for elder is Presbuteros. It is title that ends up being called a Priest in the Cathlolic faith. (1 Tim. 5:1) The Greek word for Bishop is Episkopoi, (1 Tim 3:1) where we derive the english word Overseer. A Bishop is both an Elder or Priest and an Overseer. In the Roman Catholic faith, there additional titles of various priests and bishops, depending on field of responsibility. A Monsignor is a senior pastor or priest at a church where there is more than one priest. The Monsignor is equivalent to a JW Presiding Overseer. The Church also has Auxilliary Bishops who are experiences priests who assist the bishop, and can fill in as bishop until they are appointed or replaced. An Arch-bishop (Arch from the Greek Arche, meaning chief) is merely a bishop with a larger area or region of responsibility. A Cardinal is a bishop who has charge of a larger region or a country. The Pope (papa) is the father of the church, and still no higher than a Bishop of Rome.

  In the Orthodox, the bishop is pretty much it, except that the bishop of a Holy See, like Constantinople is Patriarch is a chief (arche) + father (Patri). In orthodoxy, all bishops are equal in rank, as they are pretty much in Roman Catholicism. The designations are for greater areas of responsibility. When there is a council in Orthodoxy all bishops are called together as they were in the early church, whereas in Rome, a council is attended moostly by Cardinals and Bishops are welcome.

  Both Presbuteros and Episkopoi are Biblical terms. The additional designations are human conventions for operational purposes. Over time, there has been an evolution of importance in these rankings.

  There is also the title, Deacon (Greek, Diakonoi) meaning servant, or ministerial servant. All the titles of Elder (Priest), Bishop (Overseer) and Deacon (Servant) are Biblical title used by all Christian faiths, even Jehovah's Witnesses. It took Jehovah's Witnesses nearly a 100 years to finally come into line with Christendom on this point.

  Also, you mentioned your church does not believe in the heirarchy of the Roman Catholics. Does this include the Pope?

  Orthodoxy historically accepts the Pope of Rome as the "First among equals." The Patriarch of Constantinople is prepared to relinquish his current title of First among Equals to the Pope, once Rome comes to its senses about its historical role in the Church. What Orthodoxy does not accept is Papal monarchy as it is practiced today by the Pope, and they will not accept the "infallibility" of the Pope. They want the church to return to its historic role of all the bishops being equal, and deciding matters of faith and morals by ecumenical councils. They want each church to retain autonomy as the historic church did, not be subjected to rule-making by Rome.

  Rome knows it is wrong, but it has to over come 1,000 years of being wrong, give up some power, and humble themselves. In 2003, Rome formally apologized to Constantinople for the schism in 1054, and for the sack of Constantinople of 1204. So, they have come a long way. If Pope Benedict follows the lead of Pope John Paul II, then he will continue the program toward reunification.

  Last, but not least, is the little problem of the Filoque. I will ewxaplin that one another time. It is a technical issue regarding the Trinity. I see both sides on this, and don't know for sure which is correct.

  Satanus: Thanks for your comments. It is nice to hear, given that I know your research efforts come from a different perspective, and so adds credible verification to what I am seeing as well.

  Thanks,

  Jim Whitney