OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

by Gregor 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Gregor

  Apparently, a large percentage of XJW's who post on this site have embraced some other form of God/Jesus belief to replace the WT doctrine. Most of them fall into the "I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal savior" class. They are still extremely attached to the old "forgiveness of sin through the shed blood of JC" line. You might as well be Catholics, all catch phrases, ritualism and symbolism. Whatever. It's always easier to let others spoon feed you the big answers to "What's it all about?"

  Don't you get it?? It's ALL bullshit. What's the deal? You have to 'taper' off from your bullshit addiction? All you have to defend your "belief" is vague stuff like, "How could a banana have just evolved?" or some other trite crap.

  But here's your achilles heel. Since you still cling to your UFO believers level mentality that there is some superior, grand force to help you deal with the fact that life is tough , why can't you or JW's or Baptists or Catholics...ad infinitum, answer one question (and answer it clearly and simply, not so involved that by the time your through we have forgot the question)

  Why does "god" permit evil, wickedness and tragic misfortune??

  An 18 mo. old baby toddles into the back yard, sees a pretty leaf in a 5 gal. bucket, reaches for it, tumbles in and drowns in 4 inches of water. If you were GOD you could have stopped it easily without revealing you wonderfulness to anybody.

  A plane full of good people runs over a small piece of metal as it takes off puncturing the tire which sends debris into the fuel tank. The planes crashes and they all die.

  It goes on and on...and on and on...

  Lest you think I'm 'angry' with god let me assure you I am no more angry with god than I am angry with the cupboard door I left open and cracked my head on.

  But back to the question framed above. Come on, let's have an answer that holds some logical water.
• 

  AK - Jeff

  I, for one, refuse to address ad hominem attacks that accuse me of 'bullshit addictions'.

  Jeff
• 

  XJW4EVR

  Ad hominems aside...before we answer you, please define your terms by answering these questions:

  Why does evil (moral or natural) exist in a closed universe? For that matter why does good exist?

  How do you determine what is evil or what is good? Do you have some sort of objective point to reference from or is this merely your opinion that some things are evil and other things are not?
• 

  jgnat

  I consider myself a fairly logical Christian (never JW by the way). I'm going to edit your question, removing all emotion and ad-hominem attacks, and then respond.

  On the off chance that you are sincere.
• 

  Qcmbr

  Its an eternal plan. God could force you to live in a padded cell with no chance of risk or choice of evil but I doubt you'd be jumping up and down wanting that option. This life has two directions as far as I can see. Choices that ensure you have fewer options in the future and choices that increase you future choices and therefore freedom. Getting addicted to something restricts your choice, preparing and sacrificing today normally provides greater returns tomorrow etc.. very basic simple truths. Wickedness is making those choices that entail an element of slavery in some form or other while righteousness normally leads to greater responsibility and capacity to enjoy and meet that responsibility.
  
  Tragic misfortune is only our view of reality which has a beginning at conception and an end at death and this narrow view naturally contains the horror of that moment of cessation of consciousness and the unreconcilable feeling of injustice when the young or innocent die 'early'. To an eternal family however, the return to your original home at whatever stage of life is seen as a joyous moment, a homecoming rather than loss, a step along the path. Nobody is told anyone else's story - you have no right to dictate to anyone or any God when someone's mortal test should be considered over or how the ending should occur. The marvellousness of God was never in prolonging the spiritual and mortal seperation from heaven which we fearfully cling to and call life it was to provide a way for us to learn what we needed here and to progress forever should we so choose.
• 

  lovelylil

  Hi Gregar,

  Wow, you sound so upset. I feel really bad for you. Well, here it is in a nutshell and I will not even bother backing it up with scripture because I don't think you sound like you are in the mood to read the Bible right now.

  The reason why God is permitting suffering and evil in the world at this time is basically to teach mankind a great lesson. That is that we cannot live without him and his rulership over us. Becuase we were never made to live independently of God. And that he alone has the right to tell us what is right and wrong because he created us. Think about all the governmnets man has tried to bring peace and it has failed. Think about all the thousands of religions we have and they cannot bring peace. Every time a new President is voted in, He promises peace. It cannot work and will not work. Gods judgements are so much better than ours and unlike man, he will not dominate us to our injury. Mankind looks to benefit themselves, make themselves rich and prosperious and most of us, mankind that is, really does not give a hoot for our fellow man.

  Sometimes children have to learn a lesson by experience. We will have one great experience when all this is over.

  When God backed King Solomons reign, every single person that lived under this kingdom benefited. God when he gave the laws to Moses, included in them laws to help the poor and widows. Such as not gleaning all their crops by leaving 10% behind for those who needed it.

  Christ will be our righteous judge and ruler and will set matters straight once and for all. Isaiah prophesied about this. If you really understand Gods plan, like I do and others, God has plans for everyone. Not just people of one nationality or religious belief. All mankind will benefit. Young ones to old ones.

  And I know people will say this sounds like what JWs teach. It is true in a way because they do teach things that are true, but the difference is that they think you have to be a JW to benefit. And almost all other religions teach the same thing. It simply has no biblical basis to believe that God favors any one group over another. Actually, the Bible says the complete opposite.

  God is coming to set things straight by destroying or breaking down the governments, false religions, and social order of our day, NOT to destroy the people who have been under their heavy yoke for so long. I hope this helps somewhat. I am sorry you feel the way you do, but I really don't blame you.

  But please do not direct your anger at some who have faith in God's promises. You say you want proof but really ask yourself this: If I were to show you the hundreds of scriptures that support what I am saying, are you really going to believe or will you just say that the bible is untrue anyway?

  I will pray for you and wish you peace, Lilly
• 

  jgnat

  Apparently, a large percentage of XJW's who post on this site have embraced some other form of God/Jesus belief to replace the WT doctrine. Most of them I assume you fall into the "I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal savior" class. They are still extremely attached to the old "forgiveness of sin through the shed blood of JC" line. You might as well be Catholics, all catch phrases, ritualism and symbolism. Whatever. It's always easier to Do you let others spoon feed you the big answers to "What's it all about?"

  Don't you get it?? It's ALL bullshit. What's the deal? You have to 'taper' off from your bullshit addiction? All you have to defend your "belief" is vague stuff like, "How could a banana have just evolved?" or some other trite crap.

  But here's your achilles heel. Since you still cling to your UFO believers level mentality that there is some superior, grand force to help you deal with the fact that life is tough , why can't you or JW's or Baptists or Catholics...ad infinitum, answer one question (and answer it clearly and simply, not so involved that by the time your through we have forgot the question)

  Why does "god" permit evil, wickedness and tragic misfortune??

  An 18 mo. old baby toddles into the back yard, sees a pretty leaf in a 5 gal. bucket, reaches for it, tumbles in and drowns in 4 inches of water.

  If you were GOD you could have stopped it easily without revealing you wonderfulness to anybody.

  A plane full of good people runs over a small piece of metal as it takes off puncturing the tire which sends debris into the fuel tank. The planes crashes and they all die.

  It goes on and on...and on and on...

  Lest you think I'm 'angry' with god let me assure you I am no more angry with god than I am angry with the cupboard door I left open and cracked my head on.

  But back to the question framed above. Come on, let's have an answer that holds some logical water.

  My first comment: Being logical includes being clear. Being clear starts with clear language. To have a reasoned argument with a believer like me, please take the time to frame your questions better. I had to cross out all the emotion so that I can respond appropriately to the question and not descend to ad-hominem defence.
• 

  Elsewhere

  Flying Spaghetti Monster RULES!

  Obey your noodly master, hon!

  
• 

  Gregor

  Point made
• 

  jgnat

  First of all I am a Christian because I follow Christ. I believe Jesus rescued me from a squalid life 26 years ago. My evidence is that my life before Christ was squalid, and it is vastly improved now. My belief that I am improved is externally validated by others who say I am wise, kind, empowering and empathetic.

  I'm not bible-defender in the strictest sense. I don't think I need a perfect bible to be a Christian. Be careful not to lump all professed Christians together in the same pot. Not all of us defend our faith by fiercly defending legends past or the supposed origin of the earth. As if any of us were there.

  True, if God exists, is all-powerful and all-loving, there's plenty of evidence that He does not intervene for tragedy or disaster. Here on earth. I believe He settles these inequities in the hereafter. Here's what I wrote on Mrs McDuckett's thread on my distinctions between "sin", "acts of god", and "evil".

  I think there is such a thing as evil. And there are people who do evil things. I distinguish this from "sin".

  I view "sin" as breaking of a taboo, and as a few have mentioned, these can vary from culture to culture. For instance, when visiting a fundamentally Muslim country, it would be a "sin" to expose my ankles. In respect and knowledge of that culture, I'd do my best not to break any taboos. But people can be forgiven for ignorance or misunderstanding of "taboos".

  Now, as for "acts of god" like earthquakes, tornadoes or tsunamis, I figure these things happen. I don't think God is leaning over the earth saying, "How much suffering can I dish out today?" Evil is not the same as bad fortune.

  I believe there is such a thing as evil because there are a few things that are just plain WRONG. People who do WRONG for selfish gain are evil. For these people, I must believe there is an ultimate justice. One thing I consider WRONG for instance, is depriving a child of their best future. How can the older generation deprive the new? They will build on our foundation, we OWE them.

  I am curious, without a cultural reference, how do YOU distinguish who or what is "good" or "bad". WHY DO we fiercly protect our young? ARE SOME people more worthy of life than others? If so, what criteria are used?