OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

by Gregor 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  AuldSoul

  startingover,

  There is a whole set of words and ideas that are accepted as fact by the group when in reality they are all unprovable and are based solely on faith.

  Like "gravitons," "bosons," "particle state," "wave state," "anti-matter," and so many other things that we cannot prove, my concept of the "set of words and ideas" you indistinctly speak of are based on evidence I accept as convincing.

  Disbelief in gluons is difficult to overcome, it is impossible to prove they exist to someone who is without a certain field of personal knowledge and who is without a fairly specific set of personal experiences, yet gluons exist.

  Just as it doesn't matter one whit in my day-to-day life whether you ever believe in the existence of neutral, massless particles called "gluons," it doesn't matter one whit in my day-to-day life whether you ever believe in God. God will never be proven to exist scientifically, because the parameters within which scientific proofs are accepted prevent discovery of God.

  The rules of scientific discovery and the methods employed by researchers make it certain that if God is discovered, God will be named something (a label, like "gravity" will be applied to God) and as many of his properties as are evident will be described as fully as possible. If anyone asserts that this isn't (insert the chosen label here), it is actually God—such a person will never receive research funding again and will be left out of research teams and panel discussions regarding (insert the chosen label here).

  Basically, science starts by limiting its field of analysis to preclude the possibility of a "spiritual" aspect to reality and then challenges believers to prove that there is a "spiritual" aspect to reality. That's like playing Calvinball in the Bill Waterson comic strip "Calvin." Calvin makes up the rules as he goes, as he introduces something new into the game, the game itself shifts somewhat. Science does the same. Therefore, God can never be scientifically proven to exist.

  I've heard it before and I can never quite understand the talk by christians about keeping their beliefs to themselves. Doesn't that go against the main thing christianity uses to promote itself. Isn't that one of the main duties of a christian?

  Maybe I can clear this up for you. A meme doesn't have to be verbally communicated from person to person in order to be communicated. That said, I don't know many Christians who refuse to talk about their beliefs. I know many who choose not to bring the subject up.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  Gregor

  Lovelylil - sorry but you asked for it.

  I quote from some of your current posts here.

  "Religion is a personal choice"

  "We should just find common ground with other humans and leave it at that"

  and the one that really made me spew a mouthful of coffee all over my computer - "One good lesson I learned from being in the WT is to RESPECT everyones opinion and right to have it"

  I'm sorry, but in light of your post yesterday, (see below) I think your are just a typical, self rightous, condescending, hypocrit and you are very tiresome.

  Under "FRIENDS" "Best way to disrupt meetings, assemblies, etc..."

  Lovelylil writes -

  Yell out Amen Brother! at the top of your voice during the talks Laugh uncontrolably and Loudly from your seat Gasp and yell out "oh my God" if you don't agree with the speaker Yell out "can you speak up, I can't hear you" during talks Bring a radio with batteries and tune it to your favorite station Bring a portable T.V. and watch your favorite soaps in the afternoon
  IP: d2u5Hq+cw98JzFJ6 And Lovelylils stated motto? - (Are you sitting down?) "Just live and let live and we will have to wait and see what happens"

  Re: Best ways to disrupt meetings, assemblies,
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• 

  corproal

  AuldSoul,

  Wow you sum things up in such a clear way.That precisely what I was thinking but wasn't quite sure how to go about printing it.

  Now for the original poster,wha do you have to say about Audsouls' views on the topic.I'd be interested in heaaring what you have to say.

  Craig
• 

  corproal

  Gregor ,

  I've come to the conclusion that you're nothing but a pompous little jerk who's sole purpose is to stir the hornets nest.You really don't want an answer from believers,I for the life of me don't even know why I waste my time answering people like you.You're like some people I know who refuse to listen but only want to tear down.
• 

  corproal

  Gregor in my previous life I would have told you something like this ,"M[edit] [edit] shut the [edit] up before I peel your m[edit] [edit] cap",but I won't and I apologize .Just showing you how peple can and do change.

  Craig
• 

  KW13

  I've heard it before and I can never quite understand the talk by christians about keeping their beliefs to themselves. Doesn't that go against the main thing christianity uses to promote itself. Isn't that one of the main duties of a christian?

  That's why it's been described as a meme.

  difference is, your still given a choice.
• 

  AuldSoul

  Gregor,

  But here's your achilles heel. Since you still cling to your UFO believers level mentality that there is some superior, grand force to help you deal with the fact that life is tough , why can't you or JW's or Baptists or Catholics...ad infinitum, answer one question (and answer it clearly and simply, not so involved that by the time your through we have forgot the question).
  Why does "god" permit evil, wickedness and tragic misfortune?

  I can answer it and explain it much more simply than any answer you can put forward to explain why matter is an expression of energy, when energy is the capacity of a system to do work.

  Such "bad things" are allowed because of a difference in perspective. From his perspective it isn't necessarily an evil. Here is why:

  Scientifically, there can be no such thing as morality from a human's perspective. Permit me a brief thought exercise to demonstrate this objective reality of our own limitations.

  Suppose Adolf Hitler was the baby who drowned in a bucket of water. From the perspective of little Adolf's parents, tragedy. From the perspective of neighbors, "WHY God, oh WHY did little Adolf have to die?" From the perspective of many holocaust survivors, they very much wish Adolf had drowned in a bucket with four inches of water as a baby. From the perspective of other potential victims of planned genocide that were unsuccessful because of the lessons learned through the example of the Nazi regime, they should be quite pleased that Adolf did not die.

  Which would have been a good outcome if we look back at the history after 200,000 years? Which the evil outcome? What is "tragedy" in any objective sense when you have no idea the world we would live in had the "tragedy" not occurred? This is not an argument in favor of nihilism, merely an objective recognition of the fact that to know what harm is requires an ability to know a history that never occurred.

  Back to God:

  Suppose that there is a being who exists outside our plane of existence, outside our capacity to accurately measure, outside our discovered "frequency" range, if you will. Suppose this being is able to dispense with the constraint of time as it pertains to our plane of existence, much the same way you are able to scratch your nose when it itches. Possessing that ability does not mean you must scratch your nose at all times.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  Gregor

  Corproal writes re. Auld Souls post:

  Wow you sum things up in such a clear way.That precisely what I was thinking but wasn't quite sure how to go about printing it.

  Now for the original poster,wha do you have to say about Audsouls' views on the topic.I'd be interested in heaaring what you have to say.

  Wow, what can I say to that? I guess you got me! Please be merciful! I'm an old man!
• 

  lovelylil

  Gregor,

  what are you referring too that was hypocritical? You asked a question the other day and I gave you my personal view. I would NEVER have given you my view if you had not ASKED. I was not saying I was right. I said, God is teaching a lesson and has a plan for everyone. You are not reading my posts correctly. You can't understand my view in total because I was simply answering one question. Since then I have given more of my views. Were did I ever say that my view was correct or that I think everyone has to be Christian?

  Are you confusing me with someone else?

  Why are you calling me names like that and judging me? I have not judged you in any way.

  You see everyone, Gregor wants to personally attack someone. Why I am the target, I have no idea. Please point out in any of my posts where I have put down anyone that is not Christian, or said I had all the truth. I consistantly said over and over NO one not even any religion today has the truth about everything. Come on now you are just very rude.

  If I personally attacked you like that for not believing in God, you would have went ballistic on me. Please read my posts carefully. I think you are confusing me with another poster. You are the only one reacting to my posts with such anger. I have not been rude in any way.

  I would NEVER treat another person like that, and resort to name calling even if you told me you were a Devil worshipper. Shame on you. I think I need a break from the computer a while.
• 

  startingover

  Craig,

  Here's the bottom line ,when I tell someone about my beliefs its only because of the fact that maybe just maybe this bellief has brought some sort of joy in my life,and is it wrong to share my feelings with some if I felt it could make a difference in ones life.now if you choose not to listen to what I have to share ,well that's your choice so I really wish you'd stop painting Christians with a broad brush because in my own opinion that is a little dishonest. By the way I belive it was you who made the statement that christians are the majotirty,I would have to disagree with the statement.If anything we,re the minority. If your statement is tru provide the statistics.

  FYI, becoming an athiest has made me extremely happy. It's made a big difference in my life too. Christianity made me feel like crap and now that I'm rid of it I feel great. So is it alright if I share what has brought me great happiness and "if you choose not to listen to what I have to share, well that's your choice"? I have recognized christianity as a mind virus, if I was a caring person wouldn't I want to share that with everyone I can so that they can be free from it and be happy like me? Why are you christians suddenly acting like you don't have a need to share your beliefs if they are the answer to being happy and having future life prospects?

  As far as painting christians with a broad brush, would that apply to individual JW's too? My wife, when confronted with printed JW doctrine that she cannot deny is very judgemental, makes excuses for it and says she doesn't go along with everything. Is she really a JW? She never misses a meeting or service, but it seems she's making up her own rules and just not telling anyone. Are the christians who make up their own rules so to speak really christians?

  I don't think there is any way you can say you are in the minority, according to this:

  From ReligiousTolerance.org

  Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, described below, indicate that:

  	81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S. 52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant. 24.5% are Roman Catholic. 1.3% are Jewish. 0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam. The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% when compared with 1990.
  	14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990. There are more Americans who say they are not affiliated with any organized religion than there are Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans taken together. 6
  	The unaffiliated vary from a low of 3% in North Dakota to 25% in Washington State. "The six states with the highest percentage of people saying they have no religion are all Western states, with the exception of Vermont at 22%."