OK believers, time to put up or shut up... (page 19)

Scully

I'm going to lock the thread for a while and give you all a chance to CHILL. I will come back and unlock it this evening, and hopefully you'll all get along without resorting to namecalling and not-so-subtly-veiled threats. ------------- Thread re-opened 12:42 EDT Sunday, April 30, 2006 (sorry for the delay, site was down all day Saturday).

Jake99

In response to the original question: Chaos is what I specialize in transforming into peace and prosperity and if I can and have posted the best performance numbers on record in the area of bakery manufacturing I can do it everywhere at anything. The same principals apply to all aspects of this planet. In just one 500 person manufacturing facility I resolved enough problems in a few years to reduce personal injury insurance premiums by $500,000 a year and no one ever fell into a bucket and drowned ever again.

I believe by my works that I am the Messiah the world is waiting for and the sooner you let me take over the management of this planet the better off everything will be. I am very fast and extremely successful at solving the same problems this world needs to have repaired.

I hear what the Bush and Clinton type people say and I have no repect for their wisdom about how to solve any problem this world faces. They are the problem and always have been.

The world does not need a church it needs an organized and fair operating and management system.

Put up or shut up its time to run the planet as Jesus suggested.

Gregor

I believe by my works that I am the Messiah the world is waiting for and the sooner you let me take over the management of this planet the better off everything will be. I am very fast and extremely successful at solving the same problems this world needs to have repaired

Jake,

After careful consideration of your resume, I would like you to start work Monday morning at 8:00 AM sharp. We can work out salary and benefit details then. On behalf of myself and the staff, welcome aboard!

Yours truly,

Gregor

PS. Of course, as with all employees here at "Angry Non-believers, Inc." your employment will be contingent on a drug screening. If no drugs are found in your system, you cannot be hired.

greendawn

My counter argument is that humans themselves are at fault for the dreadful mess that exists in the world because of rejecting Christ and his gospel and going their own way.

If all or at least most of mankind had accepted the gospel then all the tragic happenings would have ended long ago and you will say that I am using an argument that can't be proved either way because it's hypothetical (the gospel was never truly applied) but spiritualisation of society can only be beneficial.

To me it is more mythical to believe that this supercomplex world came about through an infinitessimally probable event rather than by intelligent action.

helppls

Lil....

True...the WTS religion was a big disappointment for me, to say the least. I still do believe in something or someone bigger than all of us though. I have a very negative view of organized religion at this point , but I truly don't know where that would lead me. We all just need to keep on growing and learning from our mistakes........I don't know you and have nothing personal against you. I am not for or against "believers" or " non-believers" on this board. I am not taking a position on this issue at this point. I am just reading and observing. But having been in this long-drawn process of getting away from the JW religion (my family is held hostage), your initial response to Gregor's post sent me the jee-vees, so to speak. IT DID SOUND very much like "Watchtower babble" all over again...and from someone claiming to be out of it for two years. Does this show how easy it is to fall back into the Watchtower quagmire, without the person even being aware of it???? Was the brainwashing so deep seated that somebody who has consciously separated from the organization be unconciously still espousing their beliefs??? THIS IS REALLY SCARY...AND A CAUSE OF CONCERN FOR ME.........

AuldSoul

kid-A,

You are giving me a lot of laughs today. Did you realize you simply reworded my statement as your own after saying I was wrong in my statement?

Basically, science starts by limiting its field of analysis to preclude the possibility of a "spiritual" aspect to reality and then challenges believers to prove that there is a "spiritual" aspect to reality.
Wrong, and wrong...As a scientist, I dont "preclude" anything in the independent variable. However, obviously, such a variable would have to be observable in order for me to analyze it. A scientist works with operationally defined variables that are agreed upon based on previous knowledge and collected observations. Science, and the scientific method reside in a separate sphere of reality from "spirituality" and has no interest whatsoever in whether or not people "perceive" some supernatural element in their environments. It is entirely irrelevant to basic scientific research and I am always entertained when hearing these conspiracy theories about us evil scientists trying to deconstruct the mysterious world of "spirituality". I assure you, we are far too busy with graduate students and post-doctoral fellows and running our labs, to have the time to worry about nebulous "feelings" that have no empirical foundation.

You stated what I said in different words with the exact same meaning. I removed a question you asked from the context, because the context did not directly address the question you raised.

Do you really believe that scientists "challenge" believers to prove spirituality?

If someone asks me to prove the existence of God they are asking me to prove a spiritual aspect to reality. If you wish to reword that as a request for proof of spirituality, be my guest. I used the words that convey the sentiment I intended. Your "rebuttal" proved my point wonderfully. Science ignores the possibility of reality beyond observable reality, yet we experience reality we cannot observe every day. Science is great for what is does, but its perspective is self-limited and I objectively pointed that fact up.

Have scientists asked me to prove the existence of God? Often. Many times on this forum. Many times in other arenas. Once in a bar. I have repeatedly stated that I cannot and will never even earnestly attempt to scientifically prove the existence of God. I have played around at doing so on this forum when believers are asked to try, but, in short, hell YES! Scientists challenge believers for scientific proof of a spiritual aspect to reality with great frequency. If you were unaware of that you have spent FAR too much time grading papers. Not all scientists are academicians, you know.

In my experience, such challenge is consistently underlayed with a bit of that hubris you spoke about—as if to say, "If you can't prove it scientifically, you didn't prove it." But I not only agree with your statement that science and the scientific method are incapable of discovering spiritual reality or proving spiritual reality, I have repeatedly posted that conviction here in this forum. In fact, the statement you objected to was making that very point. The method used prevents analysis of a spiritual realm. There is no means by which to experience spiritual interactions that are accepted as scientific, without data there is no scientific proof.

I have never claimed science is evil, although I do believe there is a kind of evil inherent in "consensus science," an evil that tends to take on a rather sectarianistic visage reminiscent of organized religion. I am enthralled by and engrossed in science.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

AuldSoul

Gregor,

It seems you are ignoring any responses for which you have no counterarguments, or perhaps you just overlooked both my posts to you. Either way, I am curious what your response is to the reasoning presented.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/112501/1966740/post.ashx#1966740

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

fjtoth

jah1914

AuldSoul,

I noticed that Gregor refuses to answer you as well. As someone who limps between belief and disbelief I must say you have given a most reasoned approach. At least more reasoned than anything I have heard. It actually has me thinking. I even printed this entire thread out. Gregor, Kid-A I think that if you are being honest with yourselves, even if you don't agree with AuDSoul you must at least acknowledge that he articulated his position well.

So Gregor......we all await your logical response to AuldSoul. I'm sure you have one or you wouldn't have made the original challenge to 'put up or shut up'. So will you prove true to your own request? Will you 'put up or shut up'. Thus far it appears you have chosen to shut up.

Regards

jah1914

Gregor

Auld Soul,

Forgive me, I didn't mean to ignore your thoughtful posts. As a non-believer in anything supernatural, including the popular concept of a God and certainly not a believer in God coming to earth in the body of a mortal man, (the only way He could get here was through the port of Marys vagina? whatever.) so he could demonstrate through his teachings and miraculous powers that he was God or the Son of God, which in turn would piss off the Jews, who felt like he was hijacking their franchise and get himself crucified so as to shed his blood (that was important, if they had smothered him it would screw up everything) so as to give all of mankind a second chance to get out from under the curse of Adams disobedience and be able to....what...?...live a wretched life and die anyway, but have the hope of being resurrected and live in heaven as a spirit creature (this is also known as "There'll be Pie in the Sky in the Sweet bye & bye" doctrine.)?

But, if you're talking about the possibility that somewhere out there in the great unknown there is an intelligent, all powerful force/being that is (here I'm not too clear) guiding things? Well, in that case I would have to say that you and I are in perfect agreement. I guess.

OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

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