I just need to tell you, AS, that I have enjoyed all these posts you have poured yourself into.
I am saving this thread in my 'favorites' as well.
bebu
OK believers, time to put up or shut up...
by Gregor 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Gregor
Ok, here's the deal...
Dammit!, I was about to post something brilliant, brilliant I tell you!
But the Sopranos starts in 11 minutes and I still have to get a slice of pie and a glass of milk.
See y'all later
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theinfamousone
my biggest problem with this jc as my saviour thing, is this... with the research i have done, i have found no pertinent, or true historical data pertaining to jesus' existance!!! no real proof... except the religious docments... which to be honest, could have all been forged... there is nothing written by the most pertinent writers of the time wrote nothing of jesus' coming to jerusalem, or even of his murder.... if you can find me some, i would be very interested in seeing it...
the thing with religion is exactly this... the reason it exists, is because we cannot come to terms with the fact that one day we shall be nothing... i mean, that is everyones greatest fear, being nothing when we die... so we entertain these religious ideas to say; there is a hope, there is something to come when i die... i will not be non-existant....... "god will save me from the worms".... i have no interest in being bull-shitted so that i dont have to be afraid
the infamous one
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stillajwexelder
Re: OK believers, time to put up or shut up... why should I? It is a free world last time I checked. I will believe what I want to thankyou very much
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lovelylil
Hi famousone,
If you want some information from another source other than the bible on Jesus existance, go to the Library and look up some of the books on the works of Josephus. He was an ancient Jewish Historian and he records information about Jesus. I am surprised you have not found anything at all because many people who are not Christians view Jesus Christ at least as a historical person.
You will not find birth records if that is what you are looking for because all those records have long since been destroyed. I hope this helps.
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beksbks
Wikipedia:
Josephus offers information about individuals, groups, customs and geographical places. His writings provide a significant, extra-biblical account of the post-exilic period of the Maccabees , the Hasmonean dynasty and the rise of Herod the Great . He makes references to the Sadducees , Jewish High Priests of the time, Pharisees and Essenes , the Herodian Temple , Quirinius ' census and the Zealots , and to such figures as Pontius Pilate , Herod the Great, Agrippa I and II , John the Baptist , James the brother of Jesus , and a highly disputed reference to Jesus .
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AuldSoul
But it CAN as you yourself stated. Answer this question for me. Have all scientific discovery been made by believers?
I don't remember stating that, but if I did I have since changed my mind (discussions, data, and experiences change my opinions). Belief in spiritual things cannot inhibit discovery.
Traditions can inhibit discovery, whether such are religious in nature or otherwise. The best thing the Scientific Method did was officially limit the influence of tradition on the process of discovery. "Consensus science" (which isn't actually science at all) currently threatens to rob us of that amazing advantage.
No, not all scientific discoveries have been made by believers. However, to my knowledge there isn't a single discovery that has been made wherein the fact of the discovery is directly attributable—or even partly attributable—to disbelief in spiritual things. And yet, there are many discoveries which are either directly attributable or partly attributable to belief in spiritual things.
Your assertion was that there are discoveries that scientists and researchers have made because they don't "let go and let God." By the way, that expression doesn't mean "lose all interest in life, discovery, surroundings, family, etc." It means "don't be overly concerned about how things work out, you don't have total control no matter what you do, let go of anxiety about that which is outside your reasonable sphere of influence."
It seems to me that you might have been given platitudes by people who didn't know what the expression does not apply to. Even if you view the Bible as a fairy tale, when the widow of Nain was walking out of the city with her dead son on a bier Jesus didn't say, "Let go and let God." He didn't say that to lepers or blind people, or even people who were hungry. If you have had well-meaning idiots sharpen your personal pain through misuse of that expression, I certainly apologize for the feelings that no doubt brought up in you. I bet you don't enjoy wanting to strangle the life out of someone.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
AuldSoul
infamousone,
One line of reasoning that I find compelling involves what is missing from the written record that would reasonably be copiously present if Jesus did not exist.
In fact, if Jesus did not exist the absence of documentation pertaining to that fact is inexplicable (as far as I can determine). The Jews despised Christians. The Romans despised the Christians. If Jesus hadn't existed there would be much written on that fact by Josephus (for one) and by many Pharisees, as well as Roman historians. The record is silent decrying the non-existence of the hero of this obnoxious rabble.
Another line of reasoning is related to reports of Pharisees who became Christians. If Jesus did not exist, there would not have been a single Pharisee convert—they would have checked the records and known it was all a hoax, or asked their uncles or grandfathers (nepotism was common, even then). There was no money in it, no glory, little power (compared to that exercised by Pharisees), quite a lot of shame and disgrace in former circles...why did some Pharisees become Christians if Jesus didn't exist?
Hope either of these helps. But I strongly encourage research and study...lots of it.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
BizzyBee
Just believe, just have faith, and god will take care of the rest. I'm so glad there are scientists and researchers out there, that were unable to take this path.
Taking Beks comment in context, it does not at all exclude scientists who are also 'believers,' only scientists who might curtail scientific inquiry because of believing that 'god will take care' of it ("it" being, presumably, a cure for cancer, polio, environment, birth defects, etc.)
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AuldSoul
BizzyBee,
I don't like having to assume what a poster meant by their post, but beksbks leaves no alternative. She didn't clarify what her post meant at all.
'god will take care' of it ("it" being, presumably, a cure for cancer, polio, environment, birth defects, etc.)
There is no evidence of which I am aware of any scientist curtailing research because they believe "God will take care of it." Nor am I aware of any instance where a scientist was unable to take the path (or was even tempted to take the path) that "God will take care of it" and was therefore led to any great discovery...or mediocre discovery.
I would hope that if there are examples of this someone would have posted them by now.
In the absence of any example in the hard or soft sciences of a single scientist who rejected the notion that God would take care of something in order to press on to discovery, I have to assume the basis for her stated opinion was wishful thinking and conjecture. In the absence of any data to the contrary, I have nothing to motivate me to alter that provisional assumption.
Unfounded presumptions notwithstanding, there is nothing in this thread to hint that the opinion she stated is based in fact, or that there is even evidence in favor of the stated opinion (a much lower standard than proof). If this were a declaration forum, I would nod, smirk, and move on. But this is a discussion forum. Opinions can be challenged here. She opted out of supporting her opinion against reasoned challenge.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul