Considering Leaving? Consider Larc's comments..

by DannyBear 50 Replies latest jw friends

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  Introspection

  Of course many find support here, but frankly nobody ever said this board is like a support group right? I think larc has a point, I can appreciate the need for a safe place for some who are in a fragile place, but then again the internet in general may not be good if they're in that state. I can see that some use this board for support, other socializing and sometimes just for entertainment, but if it's support in the sense of an organized support group that we're talking about, it probably makes sense to keep it small or atleast state that purpose and have the guidelines written somewhere. We don't have anything like that do we? It is what it is, just a place where anyone can come to say whatever. Now my question is, are there boards/groups/lists that are specifically for support? Maybe some should just use those. If there isn't, maybe it's time to start one?

  "Soy un perdedor
  I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me? (get crazy with the cheese whiz)" - Loser, by Beck Hansen
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  joelbear

  Danny,

  The board is what it is. It is not a place for discussion with active members of Jehovah's Witnesses who are looking for information regarding their doubts. In my mind, neither is H2O. Neither forum carries on objective discussion of specific points. The witness supporters have a wider agenda that supports their dogma, the anti-witnesses have a wider agenda that supports their dogma.

  This board is more clearly a place for ex-witnesses to gather and

  1) let off steam
  2) share their stories (both horrific and good)
  3) defend the position of being an ex-witness.

  Clearly, the pro-witnesses that come here are faced with this situation. Witnesses who are active but having doubts are basically welcome, but they in general do not get simply references to where they can find answers but also are exhorting to leave the borg, get of the trap, leave the evil empire.

  The board is what it is. If Simon specifically wants this to be a place where Jehovah's Witnesses come for factual and objective information, he will have to change his policies largely. I would suspect that would also include eliminating posts that are pro-homosexual. That would certainly not be a topic that would make active but doubting witnesses feel that this is a place to frequent.

  I'm not sure if an online therapy forum for Jehovah's Witnesses is possible because of the bitterness that simply comes along with losing your faith in something.

  peace

  Joel
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  Introspection

  Hi Joel,

  I'm not sure if an online therapy forum for Jehovah's Witnesses is possible because of the bitterness that simply comes along with losing your faith in something.

  But how is that different from a regular support group? The one I go to isn't therapy, but social support. All the same there are some guidelines as to going off on a tangent like taking out the WTS. (and people do talk about that in person too) It's just a matter of the members respecting and adhering to that focus, there are plenty of other places online where one can vent etc.

  "Soy un perdedor
  I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me? (get crazy with the cheese whiz)" - Loser, by Beck Hansen
• 

  DannyBear

  Intro,

  I don't think Larc said anything about fragile JW's. Of course that is oxymoron anyway, all devout Jw's are fragile. Their minds boggled by constant mind numbing, indoctrination of where, when, how, and why they should think about anything. The good jw will never say or do anything without the 'calming'...'what does the society say, about this or that'...once that is established, they can function. Otherwise they are in a constant state of 'fragility'.

  It is really not such a deep concept Intro. If what you are saying is true, then this is not a place for revealing their false doctrines, not a place for well written essay's on all their deceptive beliefs. If it is purely a 'coffee house', then we should relegate all the research, and intellectual work, to another forum. Is that what you are suggesting?

  Larc is a bright man, he understands the issues surrounding the exodus phase..he was once there, like myself, he did not have the internet to help him. Since this is one of the primary links, when you type in the word 'jehovah's witnesses'...and since the welcoming banner, indicates it is a place for jw issues and discussion, a lurker should expect to find that kind of dialoug going on, no?

  Danny
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  DannyBear

  Hello Joel,

  Always good to hear your comments.

  Overall you make valid points. But like I said to Intro this is a place jw net surfer's will visit by design or happen chance.

  Maybe your reflections on these forums, is predicated on your needs at this moment in time. I much prefer the 'coffee house' aspect over all the constant rehash of jw garbage. Never the less, these places are public, being such it is my personal hope that my own family member's visit or stumble upon the valuable information, presented here. If they come and are repulsed or offended by what they see, they will not pay attention to facts, but scared away by nonsense.
  Could be year's before another opportunity will arise, to catch them again.

  The threads on homosexuality are controversial, and worthwhile. They can temper even a devout jw, to at least take a second look at how they interact with homosexuals at work, or in the door to door work. Even if they are radical in their viewpoints. Reading about other's who have overcome their predjudices, will make some impression, don't you think? These threads have helped me to do so.

  Danny
• 

  Tina

  Hi Intro,
  I guess the simple fact that this board is not simply for support flys over some heads here.
  This board is many things to many people. And yes,support does go on,but it is not structured to be one.
  As you know,there are structured groups out there. Those that need it should be there then.
  What we have is global diversity here regarding topics,issues, views,experiences.
  Simon allows such diversity,and Im grateful to him for that.
  Just my thoughts.Wishing you the best.T

  Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
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  Introspection

  Danny, as I said I was talking about those looking for support, like in a support group, as ex-JWs for that matter. You're talking about something else altogether. I guess I missed his point, though I think it's all related. You need people for the former, you can browse a regular website for the latter. It sounds like you just caught the part about "not being the place for ..." when I was speaking very specifically. I was talking about supporting PEOPLE, not JW issues or getting out.

  But now that you mention it, it may help to actually use the different forums that are already there for their intended purposes instead of dumping everything into the main forum. If the main forum isn't the place where you'd find the coffee house type chat then where? As it is I don't think people differentiate between the different ones very much.

  I have no opinion on what "should" be done. I accept the situation as it is, I can only control my own input. If someone will read between the lines they will see messages such as yours and know that there are people here who actually address JW related issues seriously. The lurker's expectation is also his own. If someone jumps to the conclusion that all ex-witnesses are just here to post pictures of rabbits having sex with chickens based on some messages then that is their own assumption.

  I am only pointing out the obvious. Sure, there will some crap, but there are also serious discussions. You can't control the inputs of others any more than you can control the opinions of the witness who has doubts. (by the way, in case you were wondering I also didn't have the internet to help me, but then again I don't know what qualifies as "been there" in your book) Larc also posted about acceptance, which is probably one of the reasons he left. You can continue in the us against them, fight so they don't win type of conflict thinking, or just post useful information for your part. If you talk too much about how to talk about something you end up saying nothing.
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  bigboi

  This is a board for discussion. When you have discussions, disagreements are bound to happen. However just because you disagree with someone does not give you the license to demaen them, insult them, question their character etc...

  What if a jw came here and decided to get into a discussion and was called a dipfuck, and idiot or mentally lazy because they refused to agree with one of our views of their beliefs? Do you think on average they would come away believing more in the rightness of their course or less? That is the situation and the questions that rea relevant here, imo.

  ONE....

  bigboi

  "life's a bitch a with a g-string and a twelve pack of Busch."
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  Introspection

  One other thing, there is no expectation that ex-JWs are particularly decent human beings who are all nice compared to JWs or any other group for that matter is there? As we can see, the fact is that there are many who are quite the opposite. This is just the way it is. We can talk about what we think is right, how to be respectful and all that, but any visitor who comes will see the truth of the situation, including the fact that there are many who might be considered worse off and not so nice. If they see only the personal attacks and profanity, that is their own selective attention. Even if those people are in the minority you will have witnesses who only see that, there are some people who see what they want to see.

  I can't remember if it was this board or another one, but I think someone already made the point about being good anti-witnesses to give the witness a good witness. This whole business of being a good example, being on your best behavior is actually not the way we want them to think about things is it? There are witnesses who are nice, but does that alone mean the religion is the truth? The same goes for ex-witnesses. It's a matter of looking at the actual issues. If someone is honest with themselves, they will see that you'll have rude behavior in any discussion group. It's fine to say "we" should discuss the issues, but the fact is you deal with a lot of human behavior here too. It should be obvious when someone is being serious and posts a well written essay, and it doesn't seem like there is a shortage of those on the web.
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  DannyBear

  Intro,

  ****I have no opinion on what "should" be done. I accept the situation as it is, I can only control my own input. If someone will read between the lines they will see messages such as yours and know that there are people here who actually address JW related issues seriously. The lurker's expectation is also his own. If someone jumps to the conclusion that all ex-witnesses are just here to post pictures of rabbits having sex with chickens based on some messages then that is their own assumption.****

  This all sounds very magnanimous, almost along the vein of some group therapy, wherein everyone has a turn to 'spill their guts', while all the rest of the group, listens intently, then gives the now 'purged' individual big group hugs. I don't see it that way.

  Sure your rehtoric sounds accepting and inclusive. But it ain't what happens here. People are offended, people do get hurt, and reading between the lines is a cop out.

  Why must the writer or poster make you bend over and read between the lines. Can't we express ourselves without such chacanry? I seriously douby, than any of these guys, who seem to get their kicks from lambasting with profanity and insults, need to do so, to get their points across. Lets be real, not wishing it was so, but facing the reality of the situation...people are leaving, people are getting hurt. Excusing offensive conduct by generalizing, a concept that isn't working, is fruitless.

  Sure it would be nice if everyone is where you claim to be. But even you in your final statement, displayed annoyance:

  ***You can continue in the us against them, fight so they don't win type of conflict thinking, or just post useful information for your part. If you talk too much about how to talk about something you end up saying nothing***

  You see I disagree heartily with your conclusion. If everyone took your stand, anything goes, no holds barred, yeah let Kent post some evil smear 'couched in the words of song'...let the victim "read between the lines". Bullpucky.

  No if we are going to require facts and truth here, we also have the right to complain when someone starts stepping on another's freedoms and well being.

  You can be as magnanimous as you like Intro. But you must also extend that magnanomous attitude toward those, who see if from a different view.

  DannyBear