I have thought this many times that if we were to replace Stalin for Jesus then we would say that this would be an evil act to destroy all those who did not agree with him. But when it comes to God or Jesus its Justice. And how are we to know what really happened to sapphira actually happened? Could Peter have stopped her heart by use of the sword? If Peter had acted on his impulse would the Lord Jesus have stopped him or would he had allowed him or ordered him to do so? Or could it be that Jesus did indeed stopped her heart? Or could it be more likely she died of double cardiac arrest due to a bad conscience, fright and a bad diet? Questions we can not really answer with certainty but with a measure of faith and guess work.
Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches
by A Paduan 53 Replies latest watchtower bible
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A Paduan
They ( Ananias and Sapphira ) lied to the Holy Spirit." Then you ask: "Why do you say that they didn't obey Jesus absolutely?" Isn't 'lying to the Holy Spirit' a case of not obeying Jesus absolutely?
You have been trying to infer that "not obeying absolutely" is a jesus-stated-death-sentence, and put forward that there is scriptural support that if you don't "obey jesus absolutely" then you're fried
Ananias and Sapphira didn't want to be christian - they wanted a loan of it, liking the sound of it for different kinds of personal gains - remind you of anyone ?Can a Christian be regarded as obeying Jesus absolutely if he 'lies to the Holy Spirit'?
Of course not, but where does it say that you have to "obey jesus absolutely" or else ?
Have you heard the phrase in him there is forgiveness ?
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scout575
A Paduan: I'm not trying to deny that the NT teaches that God forgives sinners. I'm also not denying that the NT teaches that Jesus will execute those who don't obey him. You ask: "Where does it say that you have to obey Jesus absolutely, or else...?" How about Acts 3:22,23?
"For Moses said unto the fathers, A prophet ( Jesus - verse 20 ) shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye HEAR IN ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER HE SHALL SAY UNTO YOU. And it shall come to pass that EVERY SOUL, which will NOT HEAR that prophet, shall be DESTROYED from among the people."
The message is clear: Obey "all things whatsoever" Jesus commands, or you will be executed. Is that 'friendly'?
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Sad emo
Someone I know who is a vine grower explained the 'vine' verses in this chapter from his view. Scout - sorry I'm going to use a modern English translation, hope you don't mind!
v1 - Jesus calls himself the 'true' vine - apparently false vines (I think some call them sucker shoots) can grow too, which don't bear any fruit but take a lot of space and nutrients - think wild brambles!!
v2 - the Father 'cuts off' branches in the true vine - I'm told that the original for 'cuts off' is actually 'takes away', some translations do use this term. It is a very significant term in vine growing. It actually means to lift up the trailing branches off the ground to enable them to thrive and produce fruit and keep them from damage.
Then, the Father prunes or 'cleans' the fruitful branches so that they bear more fruit. Jesus says the disciples are already clean, but in light of the previous words, the cleansing is an ongoing process. You can't just do it once. Just as you can't expect a vine to look after itself and thrive.
The whole reference to remaining in the true vine embraces the ingrafting of branches to improve the rootstock - if a graft doesn't 'take' and effectively become part of the vine it has been grafted into, it can't draw nutrients so it withers and dies - 'it is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown in the fire and burned.' (v6). My friend tells me that vine wood is no use for anything but burning - you can't carve it or make furniture from it, the only thing it is any use for is burning.
Jesus isn't saying here that those who don't remain in him are going to be destroyed - he's emphasising that fruitless, useless state which you risk coming to if you don't remain in him. I think this is a warning to his followers to hold to the truth rather than an out and out judgement on the good and bad people in the world at large.
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scout575
Sad Emo: I agree that the vine parable is referring to Jesus' disciples, and is encouraging them to remain as 'fruitful' Christians. Jesus isn't saying that as soon as a Christian becomes 'unfruitful' he will be destroyed for it. He is indicating that an 'unfruitful' Christian is as useless to him as a literally unfruitful branch of a vine is useless to a literal "husbandman" ( verse 1 ), which unfruitful branch is discarded and burnt.
However, what is the New Testament prescribed fate for Christians who cease being 'fruitful' and remain 'unfruitful' up until, "Judgement day"? As they would be no longer obeying Jesus, they face the same fate as people who were never Christians in the first place: They "shall be destroyed" ( Acts 3:23 ). Hardly 'friendly", is it?
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A Paduan
it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people
The message is clear: Obey "all things whatsoever" Jesus commands, or you will be executed. Is that 'friendly'?
There's no "obey all things whatsoever", there's no "you will be executed"
- what is clear is that those who won't, by choice, hear what that prophet conveys ( and I consider that including not just the physical Jesus) will not be grouped with those who are holy (whole) - it's a teaching, about what happens
Why you see it as fearful threats of bullying if you don't jump when you're told to jump is something else - it's interesting that you get close only to be freaked, not calmed
and without him was nothing made that was made
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Sad emo
However, what is the New Testament prescribed fate for Christians who cease being 'fruitful' and remain 'unfruitful' up until, "Judgement day"? As they would be no longer obeying Jesus, they face the same fate as people who were never Christians in the first place: They "shall be destroyed" ( Acts 3:23 ). Hardly 'friendly", is it?
Scout - as soon as a Christian is grafted into Christ (the vine) and starts being tended by the vinedresser (the Father) they begin to bear fruit, no Christian properly grafted in will be fruitless - they may bear less fruit or poorer quality fruit if they resist or hide from the 'taking away' and 'pruning' processes, but they still bear fruit - so they won't be destroyed.
And I'm waiting for you to jump on what I say next lol! - I'd interpret the branches that bear no fruit and wither as those who pretend to be Christians - not only do they reject the taking away and pruning, but they refuse the very nutrients essential to life by refusing to graft into the vine.
And ya know - I'm now thinking about what I just wrote there - which part of the vine is at fault for the grafted branch withering and dying? Was it the vine or the branch which did the rejecting?
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A Paduan
the choice of an individual you were as a brand plucked out of the burning; yet you did not return to me
the vinedresser puts in effort Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?
------------------------------------------------------------- If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers this is one who abides, not in me - this one is cast forth with that which grows from him
scout575 - be careful how you hear the scriptures aren't the work of ancient idiots - read it carefully -
scout575
Sad Emo: You say: " I'd interpret the branches that bear no fruit and wither as those who PRETEND to be Christians....No Christian properly grafted in will be fruitless."What about all the people who now use ex-Christian websites and message boards? Many of them were clearly genuine, heartfelt Christians ( Not "pretend" ones ) and yet they became 'unfruitful' because they came to regard Christianity as just another ancient susperstition. As they are now, 'not hearing' Jesus, Acts 3:23 says that they "shall be destroyed."
Maybe people leave Christianity, not because of any failure on their part, not because they were "pretend" Christians, but because of a failure of Christianity itself, and because Christianity itself is pretending to be something that it isn't, i.e, a God-given religion.
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scout575
A Paduan: I'm not claiming that the Scriptures were written be "ancient idiots". I just think they were written by ancient spin-meisters.
You refer to my quote from Acts 3: 22,23, and say: "There's no "obey all things whatsoever", there's no, "you will be executed." Are we reading the same Bible? I'm quoting from the KJV, and at the risk of repeating myself somewhat, it says: "Him ( Jesus- verse 20 ) shall ye hear in ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER he shall say to you....every soul which will not hear that prophet shall be DESTROYED from among the people." I don't see how the text could be any clearer than that.
This is in harmony with Hebrews 10:28-31: "He that despised Moses' law DIED WITHOUT MERCY under two or three witnesses. OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, suppose ye shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God...Vengeance belongeth unto me...the Lord shall judge his people...it is a fearful thing to fall into thee hands of the living God."
Yes, I'm not "calmed" by texts such as these. They quite clearly teach teach that God will execute those who reject Jesus. Forgive me if I find these texts unappealing.