Some scripture you will hear on 21 May at very many churches

by A Paduan 53 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sad emo

  Sad emo; The text at Exodus 31:14 couldn't be clearer. It says: "Surely PUT TO DEATH." What more would you like it to say? When Moses found the man who was working on the sabbath, was he expelled from the camp, or was he executed? Notice what Numbers 15:36 says happened to him: "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and STONED HIM with stones, and he DIED; as the Lord commanded Moses."

  Scout: To be put outside the camp was to be 'surely put to death' - maybe a shaky modern analogy might be when we consider something as being 'a fate worse than death' - what can be worse than death than a kind of living death? - that's what being cut off would be like. I'm not eloquent with words but I hope you see what I'm trying to say - and I believe that A Paduan is trying to say exactly the same thing. How does it compare to God's warning to Adam and Eve at Genesis 2:17 when he said that if they ate from the forbidden trees they would 'surely die' - but they didn't, not physically at least. With regard to the stoning incident in Numbers, my Bible reads thus: "While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day ... and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him" (Numbers 15:32,34) Then God commanded the people to stone him, which they did. Fair enough. But do you think this was possibly a one-off situation? The fact that the people did not know what to do to the man suggests that this event happened before the Law had been given and also that to find someone working on the Sabbath was a very rare occurence (remembering that the Sabbath law was inaugurated from the beginning). Does this also suggest another part of the process of revelation of God's law - first there was direct judgement (as here), then the written law (which had some leeway built in - sacrifices, temporary cutting off etc), finally to the law of the Spirit (which comes through Jesus Christ)? LittleToe on heaven and hell:

  'Are they "places" or "states in relation to God"'

  The written word kills but the Spirit gives life.
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  Judas I.

  Hey scout....

  I see you basing your interpetation of the parable on being gathered and "burned" as a bad thing. Perhaps it means they should be gathered and "burned" with holy spirit...or babtized with holy spirit.

  Are you 100% positive that "burned" is a bad thing to the author? Or are you assumming you know what He meant by "burned". Are you leaning on your own understanding by asserting that? Or do you have some inside information?
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  scout575

  Sad emo: At Deuteronomy 17:1-7 the punishment for idolatry is discussed. In verse 6, it says: "At the mouth of two witnesses or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be PUT TO DEATH." This is exactly the same expression used at Exodus 31:15 where it is the punishment stipulated for sabbath violation. You say that being "put to death" means being put outside the camp ( leading to eventual death ). However, what does the context of Deuteronomy 17:6 indicate is the meaning of the expression "put to death"? Verse 5 says: "Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto the gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt STONE THEM WITH STONES, TILL THEY DIE." Clearly, being "put to death" means being EXECUTED, and not being 'put outside the camp'.

  If you were a lawgiver who wanted to devise a punishment whereby a person was to be put outside the camp, would you express it as, 'put to death' ( Exodus 31:15 ), or would you express it as, "put outside the camp'? I agree that if an Israelite in the wilderness were to be put outside the camp it probably would result in his death ( it seems to me, a death far more lingering and gruesome than execution ), but what about when the Israelites got to the promised land? Would being 'put outside the camp' then result in the person ending up dead? If not, would the expression,'put to death' then resume its regular meaning of, 'put to death' as in execution?
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  scout575

  Judas 1: John 15:6 is part of a parable comparing 'unfruitful' Christians to unfruitful vine branches. The unfruitful branches of the literal vine are: "withered", 'gathered up', 'cast into the fire" and "burned". Is that a good or a bad outcome for the literal branch?
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  Sad emo

  Scout: I said in my last post:

  "While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day ... and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him" (Numbers 15:32,34) Then God commanded the people to stone him, which they did. Fair enough. But do you think this was possibly a one-off situation? The fact that the people did not know what to do to the man suggests that this event happened before the Law had been given and also that to find someone working on the Sabbath was a very rare occurence (remembering that the Sabbath law was inaugurated from the beginning). Does this also suggest another part of the process of revelation of God's law - first there was direct judgement (as here), then the written law (which had some leeway built in - sacrifices, temporary cutting off etc), finally to the law of the Spirit (which comes through Jesus Christ)?

  Please would you answer the questions I put to you before throwing another verse at me? This is meant to be debate, not interrogation! --------------------------------------------------------------------- LittleToe on heaven and hell:

  'Are they "places" or "states in relation to God"?'

  The written word kills but the Spirit gives life.
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  scout575

  Sad emo: You raised the question that the stoning of the man found working on the sabbath happened BEFORE there was a specific penalty given for this 'crime' ( Numbers 15:32-36 ). True. You then say that there may have been a 'progressive revelation', whereby when a written law was given, the punishment for 'sabbath breaking' might have been reduced in severity to being, 'put outside the camp', rather than the stoning that God decreed at Numbers 15:36.

  At Leviticus 24:10-16, we read of a case where someone "blasphemed" the name of the Lord' ( verse 11 ). Here, as in the above case of sabbath violation, no specifc punishment had so far been decreed by God. Therefore the Israelites wanted God to reveal to them what punishment to inflict on the 'blasphemer'. God's answer was that the offender should be stoned ( verse 14 ). Was this a 'one off'? Was there a 'progressive revelation' whereby when the written law arrived, the punishment for blasphemy was reduced to being 'put outside the camp'? No. At verse 16, God says: "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be PUT TO DEATH, and all the congregation shall certainly STONE HIM, as well THE STRANGER, as he that is BORN IN THE LAND, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall he be PUT TO DEATH."

  Quite clearly, God here decrees that the punishment for blasphemy will CONTINUE to be execution by stoning, for 'stranger' aswell as native born Israelite. There was NO 'progressive revelation' here, no 'softening' of the punishment from stoning, to being 'put outside the camp. Notice too that here AGAIN the expression, "put to death", means execution ( stoning ) and not being 'put outside the camp'. When the expression "put to death" appears at Exodus 31:15, in connection with 'sabbath breaking', why should its meaning become, not execution', but being 'put outside the camp'?

  Are you trying to find a 'nicer' God in the Bible, than the one that is actually there?
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  Sad emo

  At Leviticus 24:10-16, we read of a case where someone "blasphemed" the name of the Lord' ( verse 11 ). Here, as in the above case of sabbath violation, no specifc punishment had so far been decreed by God. Therefore the Israelites wanted God to reveal to them what punishment to inflict on the 'blasphemer'. God's answer was that the offender should be stoned ( verse 14 ). Was this a 'one off'? Was there a 'progressive revelation' whereby when the written law arrived, the punishment for blasphemy was reduced to being 'put outside the camp'? No. At verse 16, God says: "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be PUT TO DEATH, and all the congregation shall certainly STONE HIM, as well THE STRANGER, as he that is BORN IN THE LAND, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall he be PUT TO DEATH."

  Quite clearly, God here decrees that the punishment for blasphemy will CONTINUE to be execution by stoning, for 'stranger' aswell as native born Israelite. There was NO 'progressive revelation' here, no 'softening' of the punishment from stoning, to being 'put outside the camp. Notice too that here AGAIN the expression, "put to death", means execution ( stoning ) and not being 'put outside the camp'. When the expression "put to death" appears at Exodus 31:15, in connection with 'sabbath breaking', why should its meaning become, not execution', but being 'put outside the camp'?

  Scout:

  I believe that within the OT system, there was a huge difference between someone working on the Sabbath and someone blaspheming the God who has promised them special protection and blessing. Yes I believe that the actual death penalty remained in place for that particular crime - that is what Jesus was put to death for. And yes, the death penalty was enforced for apostasy/idolatry (Deuteronomy 17:1-7). I don't believe that it affects my idea of progressive revelation of the law, the physical death penalty may have remained in force for those particular crimes until later. At that time however, in the context of God establishing and sanctifying His people, such an affront to the one doing the sanctifying endangered the whole nation and it could not be tolerated. To reject God was to effectively reject everything connected with Him - His mercy, His blessing, His people...

  Another really bad modern analogy (I'm good at those!) - consider if a parent is most loving to their child and all they get in return is pure contempt. The parent won't stop loving them - but the child does incur punishment at some point, be that from the parent who finally runs out of patience or self inflicted consequences. If the child actually disowns the parent, the parent still doesn't stop loving them but the child has cut itself off from receiving their kindness too.

  Blasphemy and apostasy were both a blatant rejection of God's protection and blessing besides God Himself - back to the original verses in John's gospel - who does the rejecting, the grafted in branch or the vine. Who is doing the 'putting outside the camp' - is it God or is the person putting themselves outside by act of open defiance?

  Are you trying to find a 'nicer' God in the Bible, than the one that is actually there?

  Naturally, I could just ask you the opposite! I agree with you that there are parts of the Bible which don't paint God in a good light but my view is that as a whole there are more good examples of what He has done than bad. Until we see the bigger picture we fail to understand how it all connects.

  ---------------------------------------------------------------- LittleToe on heaven and hell:

  'Are they "places" or "states in relation to God"?'

  The written word kills but the Spirit gives life.
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  scout575

  Sad emo: Under the Mosaic law, capital punishment WAS NOT restricted to blasphemy/apostasy/idolatry. Notice the following texts:

  "And they shall say to unto the elders of his city, this our son is STUBBORN, he will not obey our voice, he is a GLUTTON, and a DRUNKARD. And all the men of his city shall STONE HIM WITH STONES, that he DIE: so shalt thou put evil away from you; and all Israel shall hear and fear. And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be PUT TO DEATH, and thou shall hang him on a tree." ( Deuteronomy 21:20-22 )

  "A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a WIZARD, shall surely be PUT TO DEATH: they shall STONE THEM WITH STONES: their blood shall be upon them." ( Lev 20:27 )

  "Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die, he that smote him shall surely be PUT TO DEATH; for he is a MURDERER: the revenger of blood shall SLAY the murderer, when he meeteth him." ( Numbers 35:21 )

  Here we find that the death penalty was prescribed for gluttons and drunkards, wizards, and murderers. Notice that in each case that being 'put to death' DOES NOT mean being 'put outside the camp', but means execution, either by 'slaying' or 'stoning'.
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  A Paduan

  Quite clearly, God here decrees that ........................

  You're simply putting forward a literalist view. and partial at that. because as Paul literally writes...... we know that the law is spiritual.. and .... real cicumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal
  

  you shall not muzzle an oxen who is treading out the grain ..... do you think that God was concerned about the oxen ?
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  scout575

  A Paduan: I am merely pointing out what the text actually says. If Leviticus 24:16 says: "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH, and all the congregation shall certainly STONE HIM ", how can that be understood in any other way but literally?