by A Paduan 53 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sad emo,
I agree with you that there are parts of the Bible which don't paint God in a good light but my view is that as a whole there are more good examples of what He has done than bad. Until we see the bigger picture we fail to understand how it all connects.
When will we see the bigger picture? Is 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 yet to be fulfilled?
Freetosee
he shall SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH, and all the congregation shall certainly STONE HIM ", how can that be understood in any other way but literally?
it depends on how you hear
A Paduan: That verse ( Lev 24:16 ), comes straight after the account of the man who had committed the crime of blasphemy. His punishment is recorded in verse 14, which says: "Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him LAY THEIR HANDS UPON his head, and let all the congregation STONE HIM." After having stoned this man, would those Israelites have interpreted verse 16, in anything other than a literal way? Does the literal stoning of verse 14, become 'spiritual' stoning in verse 16?
"And they shall say to unto the elders of his city, this our son is STUBBORN, he will not obey our voice, he is a GLUTTON, and a DRUNKARD. And all the men of his city shall STONE HIM WITH STONES, that he DIE: so shalt thou put evil away from you; and all Israel shall hear and fear. And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be PUT TO DEATH, and thou shall hang him on a tree." ( Deuteronomy 21:20-22 )
The suggestion here IMHO is a child who is totally off the rails (not someone who just likes to party occasionally - I mean, the Pharisees called Jesus a glutton and drunkard lol!) - so completely so that he possibly was also guilty of blasphemy and idolatry. Beware - here comes another of my rubbish modern analogies! - Think ASBO!!!
"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a WIZARD, shall surely be PUT TO DEATH: they shall STONE THEM WITH STONES: their blood shall be upon them." ( Lev 20:27 )
Spiritists and mediums were consulting with 'something' other than God, they relied on spirits for guidance and information. My interpretation puts this into the same category as apostasy/idolatry.
"Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die, he that smote him shall surely be PUT TO DEATH; for he is a MURDERER: the revenger of blood shall SLAY the murderer, when he meeteth him." ( Numbers 35:21 )
This one comes under the 'eye for an eye' category which was in place at that time - which ensured nobody took more revenge than necessary, it also prevented 'mob rule' - only the avenger was allowed to execute the murderer. Jesus did away with the literal 'eye for an eye' ruling - progressive revelation maybe?
freetosee:
When will we see the bigger picture? Is 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 yet to be fulfilled?
Not on this side of eternity! By the 'bigger picture' I mean how it all fits together - you know, like those age-old questions such as 'why does God let that happen?' etc. I don't understand why you cite 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as that is not prophecy?
The written word kills but the Spirit brings life...
Sad emo,
Thanks, that’s actually the point I was making. I don’t believe in prophecy. 2 Tim should apply as it was and when it was written and the clarity of all scripture should disclose the parts in the Bible in which ‘God is not painted in a good light’. How does the ‘bad light on God’ harmonize with the ‘good light’ in the light (not prophecy) of 2 Timothy?
Freetosee
Sad emo: Your modern analogy is spot on. The text at Deuteronomy 21:18-23, is clearly not discussing fractious children, but rather 'asbo boys' in 'hoodies' with sharp sticks. My point in making my last reply is merely to point out that the expression, 'put to death', is synonymous with execution rather than being 'put outside the camp' ( which would have been no GUARANTEE of death, particularly to Israelites living in the promised land ).
Your much earlier claim that being, "cut off", means to be 'put outside the camp' is disproved by the fact that, at Exodus 31:14, 15, the expression, "cut off" is equated with being' "put to death", which my last reply shows to be synonymous with, 'stoning' and 'slaying', and NOT being, 'put outside the camp'. What evidence have you got from the mosaic law that being, "cut off", means being, 'put outside the camp'? Can you give me a single case of an Israelite being sentenced to being, "cut off", who was then, "put outside the camp'?
and he became as a stone
A Paduan: I didn't understand your post. Can you spell it out for me please?
freetosee:
I see the best way of reconciling the 'God in bad light' with 'God in good light' by the process of 'progressive revelation' which I have been exploring through this thread (I don't quite understand it myself yet though!). Also, since God is outside of time, He has a perspective on the whole of history that we don't - He already sees the full picture, something He allows or does which we may perceive as being 'bad', He may have a good reason for.
Yet another of my rotten analogies! - Think of a very young child having a vaccination - that 'bad' doctor sticks a needle in them and makes them cry in pain - but the long term good, which the child didn't understand at that time, is that they won't contract some debilitating illness, but they won't understand that until they grow older and get the bigger picture.
Scout:
I just found something fascinating about Exodus 31:14! I'm looking at the NJB translation for a change and it reads: 'Anyone who profanes it (i.e. the Sabbath) will be put to death; anyone who does any work on that day will be outlawed (i.e. cut off) from his people'
In such translation either profaning the Sabbath and working on the Sabbath are two separate offences or it is to be read as a double assertion - i.e. 'put to death' is exactly the same as 'outlawed'
Now to 'cutting off' meaning 'to put outside the camp', I'm short on time so I just found a few ideas to start with. Leviticus 7: 20-27, regarding laws about eating meat all refer to being cut off - translated 'outlawed' in the NJB - but this is not the literal death penalty in any of the cases laid out.
I think the real question we're looking at is getting clearer here - you lay emphasis on literal, physical 'putting to death' whereas I lay emphasis on 'cutting off/outlawing' meaning a type of living death.
Possibly what A Paduan is getting at too, does 'and he became as a stone' mean:
he became in attitude like a stone - cold, hard, lifeless (not literally!) etc
he literally turned into a stone.
(OT speak!) he became an instrument of execution.
Feel free to add any others!
Scout : perhaps as you throw stones biblically, you could check out the use of the term stone in general
I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham - which stones ?
