For 2006 years the whole world dates their calendars by the life of this one "man"..... hmmmm, seems that there is more than the figment of someone's imagination.
No secular evidence for Jesus. What does this imply?
by Spectrum 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Spectrum
Under Believer,
It is balanced but you are left not knowing what to believe.
lily
"There are many early christian writings that are not included in what we call our bible today and many of these name Jesus. Again, how many people are under this delusion if Christ is not a real historical person?"
Actually this is an interesting point. The only answer I have is once something takes hold especially something that offers hope of everlasting salvation even for the ordinary person and not just the Emperors and Pharaohs it can spread like wild fire. Look at islam. -
greendawn
Can it be that a small and weak group under such severe persecution would survive and prosper over those three centuries unless there was more than just a belief in a "mythical" figure or even an ordinary Galilean rebel?
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Mattica
Is there evidence that Jesus existed? Hm, I used to rely soley on the writing of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, until I found out that our earliest scrolls, fragments were rewrites of what they wrote, and we do not have the original handwritten words by these four men.
Then I looked to the Apostle Paul, who rarley mentions Jesus's miracles, much less His ressurection. And finally had a brain fart in that he could not be an apostle because he did not witness the ressurection, just heard about it.
Then I looked at the writings of Josephus, Tactius and again two bits of information I found out. 1. Their writings have been proven to have been tampered with just like with the four gospels. 2. Jesus or 'this Chritus' is mentioned as a leader with devout followers, but no mention of miracles.
Then I considered the other greek myths that were around at the time and before that time who had very similar stories of miralces, being killed, then ressurected.
An anology...look at George Washington. A lot of people were wanting someone to rescue their country from the evil empire of slave owners and religous dogmonatries. He came and helped the country out of bondage. Much has been written about him, some false, some true. Very little has been written about Christ way back then.
Then I look at what over 500 people saw Christ ressurected. Yet only four of these wrote down what they witnessed? It is common for publications to be written that inpact the world as a whole for all eternity. Like with Cancer, when a search for a cure is found, you will find more than just four researches writing on the search. Global warming is dooming our planet, yet are you only going to find only four researchers writing on it?
According to Christians, God gives us ample proof that He exist. Just look all around you, and at the human brain. Yet He only gives proof of His sons existence in four Jewish non-scholars? And I question, if he really wanted to prove His existence, why did ressurections just suddenly stop after the apostles died? Why did cures suddenly stop after they died? Why did miracles suddenly stop after they died? Why did exocisms suddenly stop after they died? They were allowed to do those things to prove to the jews and gentiles that they were getting their power from God. I'll tell you for sure, I have worked with disabililtes most of my life, and if even one of them suddenly got up and walked, pulled out his G-tube, and began talking, then I would be down on my hands and knees. But that has never happened, never will. Christians don't even like to discuss the subject.
If God wants us to believe Jesus existed, why did he allow great horrors to happen in his name? Why does he allow modern day christians to hate in his name, kill in his name, committ suicide in his name? He keeps saying it all will end soon, but the book of revelations is not real prophecy. He has given us 66 books that at times contradict each other, or are very hard to understand, or can be given different translations, or sayings that mean differerent things to different people. The bible causes more division and confusion than a political run off.
In short, hehehe, I believe Jesus really existed as a man, a prophet. There is written secular proof of that. There is no secular proof of Jesus being the divine son of God. And that is a whole other subject I won't touch on.
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lovelylil
Mattica,
you make some good points and I respect your views. But what kind of proof can someone give that Jesus was the son of God? Many say he performed miracles to prove it but today people are skeptical because they were not there to see it with their own eyes. This is where faith comes in. Nowabdays I guess you have to take his word for it. (Jesus that is) That is one of my points exactly in my last post the fact that Jesus is not important to the whole world yet, only to Christians believers. So I am not surprised that the only "proof" of his existance is in writings from his followers. And by your own post, you say you believe he existed as a person. Well, that is good because the purpose of this thread was to try to prove he never existed in any way.
I can see why you feel the way you do and I tell those who don't believe that they will have to just wait and see and actually we believers have to wait and see also. Jesus did say "blessed are those who although they did not see, still believe". I for one did not "see" as I was not alive back then but still believe. I can give many reasons why I personally believe but can I give proof beyond a shadow of doubt, no. Like I said, that is where faith comes in. Faith is the hope and expectation of things though not seen, or yet beheld, we still believe in them. And believers feel in their heart and soul that God does have a purpose for mankind that will be realized. We don't know all the details yet, but will when the time comes.
But I find it hard to believe that so many people went to horrible deaths for claiming belief in someone who simply did not exist. They certainly did believe he was God's Son or what else would motivate them to act in such a way?
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Wasanelder Once
Well, let's see... If you thought you were gonna be slaughtered unless you believed in this Jewish guy, you'd go along with a calendar change too. Zealots can be pretty persuasive after the fact...
W.Once
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Mattica
But I find it hard to believe that so many people went to horrible deaths for claiming belief in someone who simply did not exist. They certainly did believe he was God's Son or what else would motivate them to act in such a way?
It is perplexing isn't it?. It is a common theme throughout the bible, people willing to die for God. Much like we still have today. JW's willing to die for a man made doctrine on blood, or neutrality. Middle eastern beliefs on dying for allah. Buddist beliefs on committing suicide if they disgrace their religion. It is prevelant throughout society, willing to die for the unknown, and unknowable. It's perplexing yes, and that is why people need to be educated, informed of what it is they believe.
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Mattica
It is also worthy to note that on faith, millions have been slaughtered and murdered by followers of Jesus.
Respectfully, Matt
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Shining One
>It is also worthy to note that on faith, millions have been slaughtered and murdered by followers of Jesus.Respectfully, Matt
Ah, now there is the real 'axe to grind'. You open with a 'teaser' then add a large lie to the thread. 'Followers of Jesus' actually obey the bulk of Jesus' commands, Jesus commanded no one to slay another, therefore no 'follower of Jesus' has slaughtered and murdered anyone! Look to your 'holy koran' for admonitions to slaughter the infedels. If you are whining about the Crusades, even the 'alleged followers of Jesus' who killed others were a response to Islamic aggression: self defense is not 'slaughter or murder'. Hundreds of millions have been killed by followers of Karl Marx in the last century alone. Why not whine about that? Sorry to burst your newly found replacement beliefs for JW cultism. Try getting your facts straight!
Rex -
No Apologies
So since Jesus' followers were persecuted, that means Christianity must be the right religion? What about Islam, Mormons, Bahá'í, etc? Members of all these groups have been a persecuted minority at one time or another... therefore they must all have the truth!
And Shining One, quit splitting hairs, millions of "non-believers" have been slaughtered in the name of Christ. Whether he actually gave the command or not is immaterial. And besides, Jesus is pictured as leading in army in the NT, "cleansing" the earth. Some of his followers are just eager to get the job done.
No Apologies