Is The Society Truly "Destructive"?

by logansrun 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • logansrun
    logansrun


    Is it really proper to say that the Witness organization is a “destructive religion (or cult)” or that they promote “self-destructive” behavior in its members? Most on this forum would say yes, emphatically so. I think the situation is actually more complex, however. I don’t believe it is fair to categorically state that they are destructive without defining what one actually means by such a label. Let’s peruse four different domains in which a group or individual can be thought of as “destructive”:

    Physically: This is probably what most people think of when they hear the word “destructive.” David Koresh and Jim Jones obviously led groups that would rightly be labeled as destructive in this way. The alcoholic or drug addict can also be thought of as engaging in self-destructive behavior that effects the physical domain (either to the abuser or to others). Three areas come to mind that might open the Witnesses up to accusations they are physically destructive: their stance on blood transfusions, poor handling of cases of abuse (sexual or physical), and possibly their politically neutral stance which might open individuals up to uncessary physical persecution (for example, Malawi).

    In the first instance -- blood transfusions -- one must admit that present day technologies make death from lack of a blood transfusion a rarity. Also, there might be few instances -- especially years ago or in underdeveloped countries -- where refusing a blood transfusion has saved individual Witnesses from complications or even death (although, it must be admitted the reverse is also true). So, all in all, it might be said that this peculiar practice of refusing blood transfusions may be physically destructive. But is it really fair to then give the categorical label of destructiveness based on just this practice? Looking at the matter mathematically may help answer this question: in all probability the potential for individual Witnesses to be physically harmed from the Society’s stance on blood is very low.

    The Society’s handling of abuse cases has been given great attention on this forum and in the popular press. Surely there was mismanagement on the part of the organization’s representatives both on the local level and from Brooklyn. But changes have been made and it is quite possible that further changes will be made from the top down, especially as further negative press comes to light. Just like blood transfusions I don’t think that one can judge the whole of the organization on just one aspect of it’s parts.

    Because of their neutral stance the Society has promoted needlessly destructive behavior on the part of some of their members, such as those in Malawi in the 1970’s. But again, how many lives have been saved due to the Witnesses politically neutral stance (not going to war, engaging in civil conflict, etc)? I would wager that more have been saved than lost.

    Therefore, I conclude that it is inaccurate to say that the Witness organization is destructive in the physical domain. Perhaps what most people mean by their use of the label “destructive”, however, is emotional, mental and social. I think a greater case can be made that they are indeed destructive in these spheres, although broad categorizations are still open to dispute.

    For those who have been disfellowshipped, reproved, shunned and reaped the disciplinary whirlwind from the elders a strong case can be made that the organization’s practices have been subjectively harmful. On a milder scale than most, I too have experienced the psychological pain and social stigmatization that are the by-products of the Society’s draconian moralism. But I think one must realize that not all Witnesses experience this pain, nor do all who are involved in judicial matters resent the discipline they meet. Other than those who leave the organization permanently, the emotional pain and social inconveniences endured by those reproved or disfellowshipped are temporary and their memory usually fades. It is those who leave the fold on a long-term basis that are truly the ones who are hurt, and in this regard I do believe it is proper to call the organization “emotionally and socially destructive.”

    But notice I wrote “in this regard.” I think that it is impossible to categorically brand the entire organization destructive due to their practices of disfellowshipping and shunning of former members (not all of whom are shunned, I might add). Just as with the other examples mentioned earlier, most Witnesses will never experience this sort of pain on a long-term basis. Since the Society’s practices are not emotionally destructive for the majority of it’s members, I don’t think it is fair to label them destructive. On the other hand, since a sizeable minority do experience this pain I don’t think it is proper to label them harmless or benign either. The truth is somewhere between these poles.

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    To quote LogansRun from a former post:

    A number of people of late have noticed the concilliatory stance I take towards the Jehovah's Witnesses -- both as individuals and even as an organization. They have quite rightly pointed out that I appear to "defend" the organization and it's members from attacks that I feel are unwarranted or unnecessary. Too often, I feel, this forum becomes a gripe session in which mighty ex-JW throngs feel the need to paint the organization or individual JWs as totally devoid of any good qualities whatsoever. Little attempt is ever made of trying to see things from any perspective other than one of vengeful hatred towards the Society. I can find no better name than to call some threads nothing more than apostate muckracking.

    And so, I try and balance things out as best I can. I have attempted to show another point of view, ususally one that is more emotionally detached from the issues ex-JWs face. I must admit that, in my endeavors to seek a neutral, intellectually honest ground, I have at times gone a little too far the other way in defending the Witnesses and haven't rightly seen things the way they more forthrightly are.

    Well, perhaps it's time I reassure the unfaithful with the number one reason why I am NOT a JW apologist. Namely....THERE IS NO JEHOVAH.

    Okay, got it?

    B.

    ___________ Well, kind of. But I was not on this board last August and all I remember reading from you are a thread suggesting that we not call them a cult and now one which suggests they are not really so destructive. You know, I don't really think it makes for a hill of beans whether people here use the word "cult" or "destructive". Its certainly is not like they are going to see our points just because we make nice with our language. After all, they called us apostates first - and I can make an argument that many of us are not that word either... James

  • MegaDude
    MegaDude

    One example of how destructive the Watchtower is is is the content of your post.

    I believe your thinking is a real mess. Your separating of categories is so ludicrous and explanations so weak as to make me question your mental health.

    But I applaud you for thinking outside the box and having the balls to post how you really feel.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    james,

    Well, kind of. But I was not on this board last August and all I remember reading from you are a thread suggesting that we not call them a cult and now one which suggests they are not really so destructive.

    Right. Exactly. But remember I'm not saying that they are not somewhat destructive towards some people at some time.

    You know, I don't really think it makes for a hill of beans whether people here use the word "cult" or "destructive". Its certainly is not like they are going to see our points just because we make nice with our language.

    "They" -- I assume you are refferring to the Society or individual JWs -- are not going to 'see [your] points' if you don't make nice with your language either. I'm not trying to balance things out for the sake of the Society, but for ex-Witnesses.

    After all, they called us apostates first - and I can make an argument that many of us are not that word either...

    True, and you have every right to do that. I would even endorse that view. B.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Mega,

    One example of how destructive the Watchtower is is is the content of your post.

    I believe your thinking is a real mess. Your separating of categories is so ludicrous and explanations so weak as to make me question your mental health.

    But I applaud you for thinking outside the box and having the balls to post how you really feel.

    And I applaud you for citing specifics and making a logical argument in response to mine.

    Not sure what you found so incredibly offensive to make such an ad hominem, but oh well.

    B.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    one must admit that present day technologies make death from lack of a blood transfusion a rarity.

    I heartily disagree. I would love to see your data that backs this statement of foregone conclusion. To my knowledge, there has never been a single death recorded as caused by a lack of blood transfusion.

    However, every year many deaths due to massive blood loss could be avoided by transfusions that are refused. For others, sudden onset of certain diseases or late detection either certain diseases or of blood toxicity create a vital need for untainted oxygen-carrying volume in order to give a chance to fight off infection. Many continue to die every year die due to refusal.

    Because of their neutral stance the Society has promoted needlessly destructive behavior on the part of some of their members, such as those in Malawi in the 1970’s. But again, how many lives have been saved due to the Witnesses politically neutral stance (not going to war, engaging in civil conflict, etc)? I would wager that more have been saved than lost.

    Ah, your wager is safely out of harms way. For one can never know the outcome of taking the well-worn road rather than the one less traveled. Again, the "destructive behavior" you refer to in Malawi was not a refusal of political activism, it was refusal to pay 25 cents for a piece of paper with some words on it. Those words merely aceded that the controlling political party in the nation was the only legally recognized political party in the nation. Refusal to purchase the card symbolized rejection of the authority of the superior authorities. It was for this that so many were tortured and killed—not for refusal to vote, salute a flag, or go to war.

    Simultaneously, Mexican Jehovah's Witnesses were specifically permitted to bribe officials—through a "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement—in order to obtain certificates (cartillas that they carried and used to obtain privileges and services) stating that they completed their mandatory military training and they were added to the first ranks called in the event of civilian conscription.

    I am still waiting for anyone to resolve that into political neutrality. Would you like to try?

    ALL Jehovah's Witnesses are damaged by their exposure to the "Group Think" of their peer group. If you can explain to me how it is that you believe there is any Jehovah's Witness who is not damaged emotionally, mentally, and socially (through systematic retardation by coersion, if by no other means) I will be most appreciative.

    If you are referring to a lack of social damage within the group you have my agreement on that score.

    However, Jehovah's Witnesses are not limited to social interaction with only each other (like communal cult followers) but they are rendered largely impotent in their interactions if they adhere to the expectations of the group. If they do not adhere to the expectation of the group, emotional and mental coersion will ensue until they either conform (accept a sublimation of their own identity in favor of adopting the group identity) or reject conformation (usually resulting in behavior for which expulsion is a consequence).

    I do not believe there is any Jehovah's Witness who is not emotionally damaged as a direct result of their religion, whether they recognize it about themselves or not.

    In that the organization shamelessly promotes subjecting individual will (self) to the will of an organization, they promote self-destructive behavior. Like every other cult. I invite you to present your strongest possible argument to the contrary.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Logansrun I don't agree with the point you make with your post that the WTS is a mildly destructive organisation, it is something much worse than that.

    Over half a century thousands of JWs died needlessly throughout the world
    due to the blood ban though indeed the victim numbers may now be reduced because of medical advances and a diminishing in its severity. Even so one dying is too many. As for escaping transfusion complications by avoiding blood that benefit is overall far outweighed by the harm that is causes.

    Child abuse is extensive though not unique to the WTS, however they claim to be a clean organisation and they are not, they are just like everyone else.

    Also the WTS is highly deceitful and manipulative, exploitative and emotionally and spiritually oppressive. Above all it is grotesquely authoritarian and undemocratic.

    Anyway it's good that you are trying to bring up a side of things neglected on this forum. And perhaps the JW set up is less oppressive in some aspects in non anglosaxon cultures eg family shunning may not occur.

  • logansrun
    logansrun



    Auld Soul,


    To my knowledge, there has never been a single death recorded as caused by a lack of blood transfusion.

    However, every year many deaths due to massive blood loss could be avoided by transfusions that are refused. For others, sudden onset of certain diseases or late detection either certain diseases or of blood toxicity create a vital need for untainted oxygen-carrying volume in order to give a chance to fight off infection. Many continue to die every year die due to refusal.



    I’m not sure how your first two statements go together but I will try and comment further on blood transfusions. I don’t agree with the Society’s stance on blood, nor am I saying that there haven’t been lives lost due to their policies. All I’m saying is that medical technology makes the need for a blood transfusion rarer, and that not many Witnesses experience death from a transfusion refused. In my years in the organization I actually have never known one person to have died from refusing a transfusion – and I know hundreds of Witnesses. Based on this experience – and in talking to a fellow ex-JW who concurred – I cannot help but conclude that the probability of any physical damage caused by the Society’s transfusion policy is very, very low.




    Ah, your wager is safely out of harms way. For one can never know the outcome of taking the well-worn road rather than the one less traveled. Again, the "destructive behavior" you refer to in Malawi was not a refusal of political activism, it was refusal to pay 25 cents for a piece of paper with some words on it. Those words merely aceded that the controlling political party in the nation was the only legally recognized political party in the nation. Refusal to purchase the card symbolized rejection of the authority of the superior authorities. It was for this that so many were tortured and killed—not for refusal to vote, salute a flag, or go to war.



    Simultaneously, Mexican Jehovah's Witnesses were specifically permitted to bribe officials—through a "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement—in order to obtain certificates (cartillas that they carried and used to obtain privileges and services) stating that they completed their mandatory military training and they were added to the first ranks called in the event of civilian conscription.



    I am still waiting for anyone to resolve that into political neutrality. Would you like to try?



    Whether the situation is Malawi was a refusal to engage in political activism or some by-product of the Witnesses peculiar theology is not my point. I’m satisfied to go with how the Society presented the matter – which is open to debate – for purposes of this essay. Nevertheless, I still stand by my statement that political neutrality – including refusal to go to war – has saved more Witness lives than it has cost. I cannot back this up with statistics but only with inductive reasoning.



    ALL Jehovah's Witnesses are damaged by their exposure to the "Group Think" of their peer group. If you can explain to me how it is that you believe there is any Jehovah's Witness who is not damaged emotionally, mentally, and socially (through systematic retardation by coersion, if by no other means) I will be most appreciative.



    If you are referring to a lack of social damage within the group you have my agreement on that score.



    However, Jehovah's Witnesses are not limited to social interaction with only each other (like communal cult followers) but they are rendered largely impotent in their interactions if they adhere to the expectations of the group. If they do not adhere to the expectation of the group, emotional and mental coersion will ensue until they either conform (accept a sublimation of their own identity in favor of adopting the group identity) or reject conformation (usually resulting in behavior for which expulsion is a consequence).



    I do not believe there is any Jehovah's Witness who is not emotionally damaged as a direct result of their religion, whether they recognize it about themselves or not.


    In thatthe organization shamelessly promotes subjecting individual will (self) to the will of an organization, they promote self-destructive behavior. Like every other cult. I invite you to present your strongest possible argument to the contrary.



    I think this is more of a subjective argument on your part, although I readily agree that there is “group think” and weird patterns of behavior and reasoning in the JW community. But one must distinguish between these psychological phenomenon and the idea that they are “destructive.” For example, “group think” and ‘subjecting individual will to an organization’ is actually quite common human behavior; just look at the world of advertising or Internet discussion boards ;)



    The fact of the matter is that some Witnesses appear to be quite content and happy. Psychologists have long recognized that some people can engage in positive deslusions: for instance a man might believe that he is God’s gift to women and, although false, this belief might have some positive effects, i.e. he may approach women with greater confidence, will have exaggerated, though helpful, self-esteem, etc. In short, I cannot say that JWs who are ignorant of the issues which have led myself and countless others to reject their belief system are any happier or unhappier than the statistical norm for the general population. (Indeed, in some ways a case can be made that they are happier because of their faith: they suffer less negative effects of destructive behavior such as drug addiction, promiscuity; they experience less anomie in the face of an ever-changing world; they experience less alienation due to their strong group bonding; etc.)



    B.

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    I would have to say that in the long term view of things the organization is quite destructive to the well being of members. Over time one is taught to stop thinking for one self, thereby losing the ability to critically think. Secondly, if a child is brought up in the organization, so much is taken from their childhood. Even if my wife can not presently pull herself away from the organization, she does discuss how much it has taken from her childhood.

    On another note, the discouragement of education has really restricted a lot of very intelligent people from becoming self sufficient and truly being able to help others. I am not sure of the statistics with respect to lifetime earning power, but when one limits themselves to a high school, trade school or even moreso thinks that the theocratic ministry school will get them a good and stable job, one is really misguided.

    Also, since so many of the witnesses believe that we are in the end times, they do not save for retirement, so when they reach the time that they should be retired and enjoying themselves, they will either need to rely on their children or keep working if they plan on having any kind of a standard of living at all.

    It seems to me that many families that are brought up in the organization become quite dysfunctional, since they look to the elders and the governing body for their guidance and answers, or will only go to the wts publications for information and guidance, rather than relying on experts in the fields who have very academic and scientific research to support their guidance, rather than some viewpoints that are trying to fit a doctrine that may or may not be changed in the future. Even with my wife not being baptized as a jw, when there is an issue that effects her family, which is jw, she will look into the wt literature, contact the sister she has studied with or even call an elder from her parents congregation. Her parents are unable to think or make decisions on their own, they continually rely on the wt or ‘wait for Jehovah’, rather than doing what is correct.

    On a purely physical aspect, the Jehovah’s Witnesses may not be destructive, except their blood doctrine, but from the mental and emotional aspects, as well as the financial well being of a family or person, at least imho they are quite destructive.

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    It's destructive once you realize it's destructive.

    Many dubs are happy even if the routine tires them.

    Once you learn how the WT works, then you notice how damaging it is to people.

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