Is The Society Truly "Destructive"?

by logansrun 24 Replies latest jw friends

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    OK - Logansrun - I have to say that you know how to run an interesting thread.

    I'll just make one pitiful attempt at logic (on their destruction binge) using an analogy:

    There was a thread just a few days ago about the new Dr. Who and his campaign against the Cybermen. The Cybermen thought they could help people by putting their human brains into metallic robot suits and cutting the synapses to eliminate emotional reasoning. The analogy is this - their action was destructive and delusional even if well-meant.

    The logical point: probably the greatest destruction that WTS has done is the total destruction of religious reasoning for the part of at least 8 million persons over the past 120 or so years. They had people believing the end was coming several times in that century, that earth was only 49,000 years in age, that vaccination caused syphilis, etc. Then they just changed it all up and none of their "Cybermen" even noticed.

    Now that, my friend, is true destruction of the worst (the freedom of thought and expression) kind.

    Have you thought about the fact that either of those two so-called apologist threads on cult and destruction would be enough to get you DFed if you got caught with them and would not confess and repent? And I don't mean the "no Jehovah" comment, either - just the suggestion they are "moderately" cult or destructive.

    YF, James

  • Quandary
    Quandary

    Truthseeker: Your comment is right on!!

    Q

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    truthseeker,

    So then we can rightly say that the Society is conditionally destructive: that is, when one realizes it for what it truly is. I might go with that, although the extent of it's destructiveness must still be moderated by it's positive affects and the fact that it's destructiveness is based on subjective contingent knowledge. As an aside, a Buddhist would say that all of desire is destructive once you really look at it for what it's worth.

    James,

    OK - Logansrun - I have to say that you know how to run an interesting thread.

    I try. :)

    I realize that the Society wouldn't like what I write, although they wouldn't bother me since they don't even know who I am. Besides, I'm a walk-away and my life wouldn't drastically change if I got DFd. Plus, as has been noted earlier in this thread, I could always plead insanity to my JC.

  • Confession
    Confession

    Logansrun, I too occasionally try to temper what I feel are exaggerated comments that lead to overblown conclusions on this board--though not perhaps to the degree you have. That said, I have to disagree with some of your comments.

    "...one must admit that present day technologies make death from lack of a blood transfusion a rarity."

    "...in all probability the potential for individual Witnesses to be physically harmed from the Society’s stance on blood is very low."

    "But I think one must realize that not all Witnesses experience this pain..."

    "Since the Society’s practices are not emotionally destructive for the majority of it’s members, I don’t think it is fair to label them destructive."

    With all due respect to some of your conclusions, this aspect--that is to say where you suggest that, since any emotional destruction does not occur to the majority of members, the WTS is not fairly labeled "destructive,"--is (I believe) without strong foundation.

    Consider organized crime families. The Sopranos notwithstanding, I think you'd find most of those involved in organized crime are not murdered--and are not themselves expected to murder. Does this mean that notorious organized crime structures cannot fairly be called "murderous?"

    Hitler did not want to eradicate "most" people in Germany. Did the fact that only a minority were affected by his shocking extermination of Jews and others mean his regime could not fairly be called "destructive?"

    I think if you examine any organization you might admit to be "destructive," you would discover that some--if not many--things within it were positive. (Mussolini made the trains run on time.)

    If a man regularly comes in contact with many women and enjoys wonderful relationships with them--but only rapes perhaps five percent of them--does that make it "unfair" to call him a "destructive" person? To me this line of reasoning is not strong.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    logansrun,

    In my years in the organization I actually have never known one person to have died from refusing a transfusion – and I know hundreds of Witnesses. Based on this experience – and in talking to a fellow ex-JW who concurred – I cannot help but conclude that the probability of any physical damage caused by the Society’s transfusion policy is very, very low.

    Are either you or the fellow ex-JW on an HLC? My father was. Hopefully, you at least are aware that HLC stands for "Hospital Liason Committee."

    If not, you likely heard of Witnesses dying of kidney failure, sepsis, a car accident (massive blood loss being a frequent result), sickle-cell anemia, or quite a few other illnesses or trauma that reasonably would result in death in a large majority of cases. However, death is prevented, or at least forestalled for a number of years, by blood transfusion in a large number of these cases for the population at large.

    The fact that a specific Witness was put at much greater risk of death due to refusing blood tranfusion is not typically advertised around the congregations. In my case, both of my maternal grandparents were put at much greater risk of death due to rejecting transfusion. A childhood friend of someone I am close to lost her life because of a condition that still requires blood transfusion as part of the treatment. Another friend of mine discovered, too late, that his father could have been spared if given needed blood treatment.

    I personally know at least a half-dozen Jehovah's Witnesses that have died due to complications as a result of refusing blood transfusions (including two grandparents), and a dozen more where they would have if they hadn't decided to take the transfusion. Four from among that last group were disfellowshipped for making that wise decision for themselves, they refused to be repentant for saving their life—how odd.

    Your reasoning on this point is neither deductive, inductive, or abductive from what I can discern. It is conjectured from the (tiny) sampling of your personal knowledge and the related knowledge of one other person, and it might be that neither of you is in a position to know the medical course taken in the particular cases of Witnesses you know that died. I disagree with your assessment, either way. But I hold your opinon on this point to be abstractly derived, pending your relation of how your opinion came to be informed.

    Nevertheless, I still stand by my statement that political neutrality – including refusal to go to war – has saved more Witness lives than it has cost. I cannot back this up with statistics but only with inductive reasoning.

    I suggest that the reasoning is weak induction, at best, given that you do not know how many have died due to the Society's decisions regarding neutrality in specific instances and you have no means by which to conclude how many might or moght not have died had the Society not held a neutral stand on the issue of war.

    For example, “group think” and ‘subjecting individual will to an organization’ is actually quite common human behavior

    But not under direct orders to do so. I understand that you refer to the discussion board rules and custom (which diverge slightly, but not significantly from each other) which are a requirement for continued unrestricted use, as an example. However, with neither this forum nor with advertising is there the threat of imposed shunning from friends and family is the subject is unresponsive to coersion. It is not a matter of willing subjection, it is a matter of compelled subjection of will. That is destructive.

    Your attempt to sidestep the coersive subjection of self as destructive (and you know exactly what I mean) was, in my opinion, rather weakly executed.

    The fact of the matter is that some Witnesses appear to be quite content and happy.

    The fact of the matter is appearances can be deceptive, in fact, as they relate to cults appearances are invariably highly deceptive.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • truthseeker
    truthseeker

    Logansrun,

    You make an interesting point...

    truthseeker,

    So then we can rightly say that the Society is conditionally destructive: that is, when one realizes it for what it truly is. I might go with that, although the extent of it's destructiveness must still be moderated by it's positive affects and the fact that it's destructiveness is based on subjective contingent knowledge. As an aside, a Buddhist would say that all of desire is destructive once you really look at it for what it's worth.

    It is conditionally destructive. Ask any Bible study if they think what they are learning is damaging to them - almost all will say no.

    Then they get baptized (perhaps) and conform their life to the WT treadmill. They may get tired but they still do it.

    Only when something learnt, received or experienced that negatively affects an individual makes them do research, then that is when they realize how damaging the cult is.

    The Society presents a slick, squeaky clean image to newcomers.

    To be honest, the tradeoff in one's mind and freedom of thought (within Christian parameters) for the supposed good/benefit received from the membership is too much.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Auld Soul,

    Yes, I know what HLC means.

    you likely heard of Witnesses dying of kidney failure, sepsis, a car accident (massive blood loss being a frequent result), sickle-cell anemia, or quite a few other illnesses or trauma that reasonably would result in death in a large majority of cases. However, death is prevented, or at least forestalled for a number of years, by blood transfusion in a large number of these cases for the population at large.

    True.

    The fact that a specific Witness was put at much greater risk of death due to refusing blood tranfusion is not typically advertised around the congregations. In my case, both of my maternal grandparents were put at much greater risk of death due to rejecting transfusion. A childhood friend of someone I am close to lost her life because of a condition that still requires blood transfusion as part of the treatment. Another friend of mine discovered, too late, that his father could have been spared if given needed blood treatment.

    I never said there were no cases of loss of life due to the Society's policies, only that they are infrequent and becoming more infrequent due to advances in medical technology.

    I personally know at least a half-dozen Jehovah's Witnesses that have died due to complications as a result of refusing blood transfusions (including two grandparents), and a dozen more where they would have if they hadn't decided to take the transfusion. Four from among that last group were disfellowshipped for making that wise decision for themselves, they refused to be repentant for saving their life—how odd.

    Your reasoning on this point is neither deductive, inductive, or abductive from what I can discern. It is conjectured from the (tiny) sampling of your personal knowledge and the related knowledge of one other person, and it might be that neither of you is in a position to know the medical course taken in the particular cases of Witnesses you know that died. I disagree with your assessment, either way. But I hold your opinon on this point to be abstractly derived, pending your relation of how your opinion came to be informed.

    I still stand by my statements. It cannot be denied that the extreme majority of JWs will not die from lack of a blood transfusion, even though this remains a statistical possibility.

    Your attempt to sidestep the coersive subjection of self as destructive (and you know exactly what I mean) was, in my opinion, rather weakly executed.

    And your sidestepping of my point about positive self-delusions was also weakly executed.

    B.

  • DannyHaszard
  • itsallgoodnow
    itsallgoodnow
    Is it really proper to say that the Witness organization is a “destructive religion (or cult)” or that they promote “self-destructive” behavior in its members? Most on this forum would say yes, emphatically so. I think the situation is actually more complex, however. I don’t believe it is fair to categorically state that they are destructive without defining what one actually means by such a label. Let’s peruse four different domains in which a group or individual can be thought of as “destructive”:

    Physically: This is probably what most people think of when they hear the word “destructive.” David Koresh and Jim Jones obviously led groups that would rightly be labeled as destructive in this way. The alcoholic or drug addict can also be thought of as engaging in self-destructive behavior that effects the physical domain (either to the abuser or to others). Three areas come to mind that might open the Witnesses up to accusations they are physically destructive: their stance on blood transfusions, poor handling of cases of abuse (sexual or physical), and possibly their politically neutral stance which might open individuals up to uncessary physical persecution (for example, Malawi).

    In the first instance -- blood transfusions -- one must admit that present day technologies make death from lack of a blood transfusion a rarity. Also, there might be few instances -- especially years ago or in underdeveloped countries -- where refusing a blood transfusion has saved individual Witnesses from complications or even death (although, it must be admitted the reverse is also true). So, all in all, it might be said that this peculiar practice of refusing blood transfusions may be physically destructive. But is it really fair to then give the categorical label of destructiveness based on just this practice? Looking at the matter mathematically may help answer this question: in all probability the potential for individual Witnesses to be physically harmed from the Society’s stance on blood is very low.

    The Society’s handling of abuse cases has been given great attention on this forum and in the popular press. Surely there was mismanagement on the part of the organization’s representatives both on the local level and from Brooklyn. But changes have been made and it is quite possible that further changes will be made from the top down, especially as further negative press comes to light. Just like blood transfusions I don’t think that one can judge the whole of the organization on just one aspect of it’s parts.

    Because of their neutral stance the Society has promoted needlessly destructive behavior on the part of some of their members, such as those in Malawi in the 1970’s. But again, how many lives have been saved due to the Witnesses politically neutral stance (not going to war, engaging in civil conflict, etc)? I would wager that more have been saved than lost.

    Therefore, I conclude that it is inaccurate to say that the Witness organization is destructive in the physical domain. Perhaps what most people mean by their use of the label “destructive”, however, is emotional, mental and social. I think a greater case can be made that they are indeed destructive in these spheres, although broad categorizations are still open to dispute.

    For those who have been disfellowshipped, reproved, shunned and reaped the disciplinary whirlwind from the elders a strong case can be made that the organization’s practices have been subjectively harmful. On a milder scale than most, I too have experienced the psychological pain and social stigmatization that are the by-products of the Society’s draconian moralism. But I think one must realize that not all Witnesses experience this pain, nor do all who are involved in judicial matters resent the discipline they meet. Other than those who leave the organization permanently, the emotional pain and social inconveniences endured by those reproved or disfellowshipped are temporary and their memory usually fades. It is those who leave the fold on a long-term basis that are truly the ones who are hurt, and in this regard I do believe it is proper to call the organization “emotionally and socially destructive.” But notice I wrote “in this regard.” I think that it is impossible to categorically brand the entire organization destructive due to their practices of disfellowshipping and shunning of former members (not all of whom are shunned, I might add). Just as with the other examples mentioned earlier, most Witnesses will never experience this sort of pain on a long-term basis. Since the Society’s practices are not emotionally destructive for the majority of it’s members, I don’t think it is fair to label them destructive. On the other hand, since a sizeable minority do experience this pain I don’t think it is proper to label them harmless or benign either. The truth is somewhere between these poles.

    You seem unable to deal with the idea there might be something actually bad about the JW religion. I know when you look at things from different angles, the injustices of the JW religion pale in comparison with other injustices in the world. But that doesn't mean its all good, does it?

    So you don't like the idea of JWs being described as a cult or as destructive. There are many definitions of the word "cult" and by most if not all definitions of the word, the JW religion fits. I like how perfectly the JW religion fits the secular cult opposition definition of "cult" (from Wikipedia below).

    ---------------------------------------

    Definition by secular cult opposition

    Secular cult opponents define a "cult" as a religious or non-religious group that tends to manipulate, exploit, and control its members. Here two definitions by Michael Langone and Louis Jolyon West, scholars who are widely recognized among the secular cult opposition:

    Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders. 1
    "A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." 8

    ---------------------------------------

    As far as "destructive" goes, I strongly feel the beliefs and practices of JWs are at least potentially destructive to its membership and at most can be devastating to some people with weak a psyche or other difficulties in life. They may not know it, or they may know it. Either way, lasting or temporary problems can be, and have been for many people, a result of belonging to this group.

    For example, I may not bleed to death, but there's a fairly good chance I can ruin my opportunities for happiness and financial independence if I marry a man in this group. If my marriage was to end but I couldn't prove infidelity, I wouldn't be allowed to ever remarry. How many people does this little problem affect? And how can you say that isn't destructive to them?

    Yes, it's all self inflicted. I agree with that. But persuasion and manipulation is a big part of that, and that's part of what makes it a cult.

    The way I like to look at it is this... there are many cults. Some are even more ridiculous and revolting than JWs, some are less so. Either way, I hate cults. And my personal pet cult to hate is JWs, because it's personal.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    logansrun,

    I apologize for what seemed a weak treatment. I was responding in kind. You really didn't make a point beyond your first sentence, so I responded to the point you made with a maxim that has stood the test of time for a reason.

    Psychologists have long recognized that some people can engage in positive deslusions: for instance a man might believe that he is God’s gift to women and, although false, this belief might have some positive effects, i.e. he may approach women with greater confidence, will have exaggerated, though helpful, self-esteem, etc.

    Since you insist: It is also possible for a man who lacks self-confidence to brace himself up in the short term, overcome his discomfort, press on and fake self-confidence—pretending that he is God's gift to women—only to suffer deeply wounding mortification over rejection (doors slammed in faces). It is also possible that unwarranted "self-esteem" (which is called egotism, arrogance, or hubris) may be harmed by the delusion (announcing to a fellow employee that a movie or book under discussion is "demonized" and that "no real Christian would ever read/watch such a thing" in front of a superior who read/watched and also considered him/herself a Christian).

    Is that specific enough for you? There is no such thing as a delusion without consequence. The fact that a delusion might have consequences that are positive in some instances does not render it a positive delusion. But, for the sake of argument, I am willing to concede that there may be some self-delusions that are beneficial in some respects.

    However, it is not a positive self-delusion in any respect to believe oneself (and everyone else) of being incapable of functioning in an ethical and moral manner without the constant aid of instructions contained in publications from a book publishing Corporation (subjecting self-determination to an organization). I would be delighted to read anything you can muster to the contrary. This is one utterly destructive self-delusion in the Governing Body package you buy at baptism, but there are more.

    I admire your tenacity in trying to make your points stick, but I think this "Non-Destructive Theory" is pretty well sunk.

    On the blood issue, we will have to agree to disagree, despite the fact that I perceive ONE lost life as a result of that coercion imposed policy to be sufficient cause to label the coercive organization "destructive". If you disagree it calls up my insatiable curiosity, what amount of bloodguilt through imposition of doctrine do you find palatable?

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

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