JWfact. I believe that there IS absolute truth. And I belive that humans can know truth. I doubt that humans are able to know ALL the truth. For example I believe that this table has 4 legs is absolute truth. Truth is reflection of reality. So as we are part of reality ourselves then it is very logical, that we can know something about absolut truth. Our mind is part of the reality, and mind is only known perception orghan which can grasp the truth.
And here comes one truth about reality. If you ignore illusion there will no be bad consequences, but if you ignore truth, you can end very badly. Only exception to the first part of this rule is that only humans are able to create consequences for illusions, thus creating illusion of reality. This is how JW middleage Chatolics and all other ideologies act. They create consequences for illusions. For truth there allways will be consequences if you ignore it in long term. So this is may way how to distinguish truth from illusion. Try to model it's ignorance and see how consequences comes. It is interesting experimentation with reality. People speak about realtive truth, but they allways looks left and right when cross the street, coz they know that reality does not care about your truth, you should care about realitie's truth. And I believe that beyond phisical world there is spriritual world and as gravity is very real in phisical world I believe moral laws are very real in spiritual world. Ignoring gravity leads to disaster, ignoring moral does the same. And airplanes are not ignorance of gravity, they just rely on other laws which can keep from falling even if you are heavy (sinner). So the same with spiritual world... there are means of saving you from falling even if you are not able to keep all the moral laws. The best test for reality and truth is - to ignore it, only bad thing is that at some cases you will not be able to tell about the truth to others as you will be dead :)
No Absolute Truth
by Shining One 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Shazard
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hallelujah
And I believe that beyond phisical world there is spriritual world and as gravity is very real in phisical world I believe moral laws are very real in spiritual world.
Bravo Shazard. In fact this is what gives me meaning to live.
Dan
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Narkissos
"Laws" are neither "absolute" nor completely arbitrary. They do change in time but not in any direction. Whether written or not, they will always be protective of whatever is defined as the main body, or mainstream, of society. Because they are an essential part of the middle class' self-defence system.
Now there is no center without a fringe. And in the fringe anything can and does happen, with or without laws, with or without God. No society is "lawless," no society is "crimeless" either. The "lawless" / "criminal" fringe is both attractive and repulsive to the "law-abiding" center, as Shining One's post shows.
The problem is not so much what is defined as "lawful" or "criminal" as the very existence of a limit. When something which was "out" is newly accepted "in" (such as divorce, abortion or homosexuality) the mainstream feels a strong urge to reassure itself that the limit is still there, i.e. that something is still out, and the rejection of it is only more violent. You can bet pedophilia is not going to be welcome in politically correct speech anytime soon.
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Caedes
sinning one, it must have been tough on you growing up. What age did you realise that you were the dumbest kid in the neighbourhood?
I'm making the assumption that you don't live near to scholar.
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jwfacts
Interesting comment Nark.
Shazard, I agree that there are truths that we can know, and there are truths that we benefit from holding. Religion can provide those truths to people. I also agree that that absolute is theoretically possible, but no human source has ever come close to describing it.
Over time truth changes. 200 years ago truth said that a large metal box could not fly, now we call it an aeroplane. Qantum physics shows that we have barely touched the surface of possibility, and most of what we understand as truth will be replaced.
Religion said that divorce is wrong except on grounds of adultery. Now that Western society allows equality for women it has added that extreme violence is a good reason for divorce. The New Testament showed that Old Testament truths were out of date and replaced them (though Paul attempts to explains it more subtly than that). The knowledge we now have has created many dilemmas that are not covered in New Testament guidelines and require new guidance. I am not sure that out of date fundamentalist religious groups are the best source of this guidance, though there are other religious groups that fill this need.
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Shazard
jwfacts you do common mistake mixing truth with interpretation of truth. Truths is reflection of reality and while reality does not change truth does not change. Metal boxes could fly in middle ages too, laws allowing plain to fly was there from the very begining of this world. Earth allways was round even when ppl was telling it is flat.
As I told - test for truth is - try to ignore it in long term. -
Abaddon
Hey Rex, the nurse have got you a new water-proof keyboard you can't drool or widdle on!
Is there no 'absolute truth'? Do you want to live that one out?
You then have no moral basis for any law in any society.
Going by this premise there are no laws that should be enacted, much less enforced!
What bollocks Rex. There are commonly accepted secular principles (such as human rights) which clearly lay the groundwork for a legislative framework that will outlaw harming others or infringing their rights.
Is it me or are fundie morons getting MORE stupid as the years go by?
Let's try abortion on for size. Since it is up the woman to decide what happens to her body that makes partial birth abortion acceptable, right (that's where a 'doctor' crushes the skull of a late term baby and sucks his/her brains out)?
Here Rex makes an argument about a form of abortion that is less than one fith of one percent, a form of abortion that the Anti-Choicers had to make up a word to describe, a form of abortion typically only used with late diagnosis of non-viability. In cases it is chosen over other forms of abortion as it allows the parents an intact body to grieve over. I don't have the figures for totally viable babies aborted by this method, but then neither has Rex as such a usage would be utterly atypical, so his next question
If that is ok then why is it illegal to dispose of a newborn that is not aborted? What about a child who is a month old? Six months?
... is intentionaly deceptive or illustrative of his ignorance and bias, as IDX isn't a procedure a doctor would recommend when the baby is normal and viable.
Let's do 'gay rights' next, the marriage issue. Why would it be wrong for two men and a woman to get married or any combination of the above (including critters, LOL)?
Please show me where marriage was copyrighted by Christians so as to give them the right to define it in perpetuty. Without this you can carry on defining marriage how you like and give others the same rights; as long as it is by consent of the involved parties, who cares?
Let's go for broke on this one. Why is it wrong for adults to 'know' children (as NAMBLA likes to claim)?
Because children are not capable of giving informed consent, therefore such adult-child sexual contact infringes their human rights. But as Rex is not interested in the rights of other humans in general, only in the rights of those he approves of, he trips himself up showing that HE considerers the only reason sex with children is wrong is because god says so... when in fact god says nothing of the sort in the Bible. Dogs get more protection from untoward sexual advances than children in the Bible...
... isn't it funny how we all know sex with kids is just WRONG without any book, and Rex and claimed Christians like him are so removed from reason they need a book to tell them hurting other people and infringing their rights is wrong?
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jwfacts
Very true Shazard. The question has always been "what is truth?" It was always my big disappointment that Jesus did not make a comeback reply.
The truth always was that aeroplanes can fly, but how do you test that truth without the correct tools to do so? The average person had to believe the earth was flat because they did not have the means to know otherwise.
That is why the simple truth about love is most important because it does not change. Many other incorrect beliefs affect our thinking, such as length of creative days, or shape of the earth, or if these are or are not the last days, but they really matter little in the scheme of things. It is how we live our lives day to day that matters, and whether it is guided by love.
This is why fundamental religions are so dangerous. They make out that their beliefs are absolute truth, and control peoples behaviour around what is regularly proven not to be correct. As soon as a person thinks with their heart they know that the WTS is not truth. By the yardstick of love it is quite simple to see that a religion that says "do exactly what we say or we will shun you, family included" does not have truth. Love also refutes the concept of the WTS that any person that does not believe 'todays' version of their truth is not acceptable to God.
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Satanus
Rex and claimed Christians like him are so removed from reason they need a book to tell them hurting other people and infringing their rights is wrong?
All it takes is empathy. You don't need a bible, or it's god, or king to feel it. In fact, bible codes often override it.
S
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jgnat
I take back my earlier complaint. "Shining One", stop coming up with your own ideas. They're horrible!
I happen to believe in absolute truths. But they SURE THE HECK don't revolve around ABORTION or MARRIAGE COMBINATIONS. What were you THINKING, man? You have thrown up strawman arguments. Weak, weak, weak. In essence, you are telling people if they don't believe in absolute truth they support head-crushing, bestiality, and pedophilia. That's misdirection and a falsehood.
Here's a possible absolute, "Do no harm."
Another, "Perpetuate the species."
or another, "Protect the collective."What's yours, "Shining One"? "Follow the bible as it exists today and all it's instruction to the fullest degree."?