John 8:3-11

by Zico 49 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  Lovelylil,

  I'm sure Peacefulpete never meant to equate belief and lack of intelligence but he is certainly apt to answer for himself. However I find some of your more generic statements problematic, especially:

  My first responsibilty though if someone comes to me as a Christian to learn about my faith is to teach them the basics of Christianity, especially when they feel they are being called to become a Christian themselves. Why would I want to give them first off - information that is to disprove Christianity? Would this make any sense to you? My goal is to upbuild others in the faith, not to stumble them.

  While I understand that there is a time for everything, if you think the kind of "Christianity" you "teach" others can be 'disproved' by any "information" which is nonetheless worth considering, I guess you'd do them a favour by either searching the issue thoroughly before teaching it and / or (in the meantime) focusing your teaching on things which are not subject to be "disproved" -- i.e., personal and church experience rather than tradition or text history.

  I personally found that the "pastoral concern" of many church leaders, resulting in hiding to the "little ones" some important problems they were perfectly aware of (especially in the field of Bible criticism), often backfires. As a result what people learn and regard as "faith" is not only "faith," but an imaginary set of beliefs which includes a lot of pseudo-science and pseudo-history. When at some point they get in touch with the facts through popularisation books, TV programs or websites, and then turn to their pastors who tell them they knew about it all the time, they have a strong feeling they were lied to, and are much more likely to reject all "faith".
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  Apostate Kate

  I personally found that the "pastoral concern" of many church leaders, resulting in hiding to the "little ones" some important problems they were perfectly aware of (especially in the field of Bible criticism), often backfires. As a result what people learn and regard as "faith" is not only "faith," but an imaginary set of beliefs which includes a lot of pseudo-science and pseudo-history. When at some point they get in touch with the facts through popularisation books, TV programs or websites, and then turn to their pastors who tell them they knew about it all the time, they have a strong feeling they were lied to, and are much more likely to reject all "faith".

  No offense but you use some very generalized statements here. You may not be in touch with today's church at all. The WTBTS is not reflective at all of mainstream Christianity. Please do not make such wide sweeping statements. You basically have generalised that all who believe and follow Jesus Christ is a life based on imaginary faith. In fact at Calvary Chapel, www.calvarychapel.com and many other churches deep study of the scriptures is the norm.

  Faith and conversion is simple. You believe Jesus, you recieve Him as your God and Savior, and you follow Him. Study and research can take many years and there are many great Theological seminaries that cover everything.

  Galatians 1:6-7 I marvel that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel; and there isn't another gospel. Only there are some who trouble you, and want to pervert the Gospel of Christ.

  Respectfully~Kate
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  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  I think I am being misunderstood by some but I will say this: since you do not know what kind of Christianity I am teaching others please do not make a judgement about it. I assure you I do not have to go and relearn my faith before I can teach it to others. I have been teaching Christian views for almost 20 years now. That is why contrary arguements do not weaken my faith in any way. Most of these, I have not only heard but defended before from the Christian perspective.

  I think the arguement that a brand new Christian does not have the knowledge or tools yet to defend every arguement made against them is a valid point. So when Christian ministers tell them to build up their faith and knowlege first before they look at contrary arguements they are not trying to hide anything. You simply cannot build your faith and undo it at the same time.

  So if someone contacts me because they are feeling called to follow the Christian faith, I give them the same advice to build it up before trying to defend it or reading contrary arguements.

  I would assume that teachers of other religions would give the same advice.

  Other than saying this, I am very surprised and perplexed by your last post.

  But I always value your opinion.
• 

  Narkissos

  AK,

  You basically have generalised that all who believe and follow Jesus Christ is a life based on imaginary faith

  Have I?

  On the contrary, I tried to differentiate between subjective (whether individual or communitary) faith which nobody can disprove and the pseudo-science and pseudo-history which often -- not always -- go with it. Only the latter can be disproved. And when it is, if "faith" has not been differentiated from it first, then there is a good chance that "faith" goes away too.

  In that case the shortsighted "pastoral concern" which prevents church leaders from dealing with the real issues of Bible criticism with their "flock" for fear of stumbling them, results in stumbling them for good.

  Many (especially American) Christian believers read the Bible as if it fell from heaven. They have no idea of its real history and all the idea and power struggles behind it. The biggest narratives (Creation-Eden-Flood-Babel-Patriarchs-Exodus-Conquest-Judges-Monarchy / Virgin Birth-Baptism-Crucifixion-Resurrection-Ascension-Pentecost) are taken at face value as history. They simply are not, and that doesn't make Christian faith worthless. But how many Christians are aware of that? In most cases the only scholarship they are familiar with consists in reassuring comments from conservative scholars, ripped of their scholarly precautions.

  Study and research can take many years and there are many great Theological seminaries that cover everything.

  Some do "cover," others "cover up" I guess.

  Lovelylil,

  I don't know you or your work, my reaction is only to what you have written about "information that is to disprove Christianity". What kind of Christianity could a discussion of the formation of Bible texts disprove? That's about all.

  I sure didn't mean to offend you, and I apologise if I did; but I don't mind perplexing you.
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  Apostate Kate

  Some do "cover," others "cover up" I guess.

  I truly did not mean to contradict you, I am simply pointing out that there is a great movement of believers who are not stupid and ignorant of all ancient writings. The majority of mainstream Christian leaders have no desire to worship in any other way than in true Spirit and Truth. All American seminaries offer a full range of courses covering church history. We study the early church fathers, gnosticism, aryanism and have founded our faith on the truth we have accepted as truth. We study Hebrew and Greek. My daughter is studying ancient Greek and is doing her finals this weeks.

  We read all Bibles translations and texts and do not discount anything as unworthy of study. We just process it differently from an agnostic, aryan, and athiest.

  We do not hide from any truth, any books, anything ever written. We read it all and formulate our beliefs and faith accordingly, however, the simple truth of the actual gospel of Christ is simple enough for a child to understand. There is no evil in the teachings of Christ.
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  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  Thanks for your reply. I didn't mean at all to say that a discussion of biblical texts would disprove someone's faith. I know it wouldn't mine. Maybe I misunderstood because I thought some on this thread were using these "proof texts" to show biblical discrepancies and therefore were trying to say this was proof the bible was tampered with and thus is not valid - I disagree with this point.

  Now, I am seeing I misunderstood - sorry.

  Kate,

  Thanks for adding your comment, I was thinking the same thing as you but you said it first.
• 

  Apostate Kate

  Thanks for adding your comment, I was thinking the same thing as you but you said it first.

  Some well meaning intelligent people, no one in particular, are of the opinion that all Christians do not know everything there is to know about Christianity, and if they did, they would leave that faith. Mainstream Christianity is nothing like the WTBTS.

  We are not all stupid.
• 

  mdb

  Just to add a word about the results of redaction. Sometimes the editors were highly skilled and left us little to recognize their work I say sometimes but of course if they did a very good job we don't know about it. So thank goodness for clumsiness. For example notice in john 13:36

  36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, " (BB) Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but (BC) you will follow later."

  Yet 16:5

  5 "But now (I) I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ' (J) Where are You going?'

  Oops

  Simon Peter asks Jesus a question:

  Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.” (Jn 13:36)

  Jesus answer Simon Peter's question:

  “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
  Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” (Jn 14:1-7)

  You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. “And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. (Jn 14:28,29)

  Jesus, after telling them where He was going, makes a general statement that none ask Him, "Where are You going?". Jesus told them where he was going and Jn 16:4,5 is not a contradiction with the previous verse (Jn 13:36). You have to read Jn 13:36; 16:4,5 within their context. Reading these two verses without reading the entire chapters could easily be percieved as a contradiction.

  But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them. “And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you. “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ (Jn 16:4,5)
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  Midget-Sasquatch

  Hi AK

  Some well meaning intelligent people, no one in particular, are of the opinion that all Christians do not know everything there is to know about Christianity, and if they did, they would leave that faith. Mainstream Christianity is nothing like the WTBTS.

  We are not all stupid.

  I definitely do not consider christians stupid. In fact I fancy certain heretical forms of it. In any case, I've got substantial experience with Roman Catholicism. How's that for mainstream?I've found that while many priests and nuns are well versed on bible criticism, very few of them actually share that info with the parish. I've had some wonderful teachers who tried to give us some exposure to this field but it was limited, far in between and they always tried to discuss it in a way that didn't call the faith into question. Almost like they were trying to use it to inoculate us against it. I'd say the majority of RC parisheners accept the gospel narratives as history. The whole stink with the DaVinci Code tells me that the situation is fairly the same in other denominations as well.
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  peacefulpete

  Boy did that come off wrong. Lovelylill I never meant to suggest that believers necessarily had low intelligence. There are both very intelligent believers as well as very intelligent nonbelievers. There are low intelligence believers and low intelligence nonbelievers, I find there is no correlation between intelligence and belief or nonbelief.

  I was trying to understand your comment about having to protect the faith of someone who you felt may be following the thread. I do feel that there are times when people need to be sheltered. If as I said someone is emotionally fragile or of low intelligence they may not be able to process something new and paradigm changing. That would be understandable. However if your simply trying to perpetuate an illusion, such as the belief that the Bible is without texual issues by avoiding public discussion, that is misguided. People who want to learn about these questions will find the topic discussed somewhere, if not here then perhaps in reference works or footnotes in popular editions of the Bible such as I posted as an example.

  And of course I was not suggesting that because a footnote in a translation says something it must be true. I was posting it to illustrate the openness with which textual issues are presented in some religious works. IOW the things we have discussed here are neither radical nor secret, but often heard and openly discussed in scholarly circles.

  Again please accept my apology for my poor wording. Truly I find your disposition to be lovely and your williness to learn refreshing.