Absolute truths have been admitted.... (page 7)

Shining One

Hi Hellrider,
Do you see how the intellectual conversations quickly degenerate to the lowest common denominator? It doesn't really matter though. We can continue to seek common ground via I.M. I have to let the chaos continue for awhile because those who are being reached sometimes need prodding before they will seek answers in a private arena. Thanks for the serious and insightful comments. I respect your sincere attempt at finding common ground. I'd really don't mind the foul comments and gladly be thought a fool for Christ. May God bless you and those who are seeking....
As far as Nark's comments on Abraham, he apparently misses the fact that Abraham's attempted sacrifice of his son shows a type of the events of Calvary and the ram in the bushes shows that God provides the sacrifice for mankind's redemption. Whenever you look into the O.T. accounts look for Jesus and the acts of redemption. Even the sacrificial system is a type that pointed toward the advent of the savior. There are some good books on the subject once you get away from the wacko, leftist fringe authors that the unbelievers favor.
See if you can figure out the types from the Great Flood account: the Ark as a type of Christ; salvation for a remnant through the Ark.
Rex

daniel-p

"I'd really don't mind the foul comments and gladly be thought a fool for Christ."

Would you gladly be thought an asshole for Christ? Would Christ choose an asshole to bear his name? Get off your high horse, Deluded One.

press any key

Hi Rex

2 quick questions, but firstly thanks for raising a fascinating topic

First question, are you really 51 (this may have been covered on another topic but there are a lot of them)?

And second, you claim that absolute truths have been admitted, but I havent seen any in this topic - 4 pages and counting. What are the absolute truths we should be aware of. I accept that there may be absolute truths, but I in my ignorance dont know of any. So I guess Rex thats where you come in. What are the absolute truths we should know, and also cause anyone can make this stuff up, what proof do you have?

Cheers

pak

jgnat

Welcome, pak. I like your questions.

Hellrider

What are the absolute truths we should be aware of. I accept that there may be absolute truths, but I in my ignorance dont know of any

Use your imagination: Think about the crimes of this world that are inexcusable...

Really, people who are unable to understand that there are some moral absolutes, really have a poor sense of imagination. I hate to do this, because thinking about such things turns most peoples stomachs, mine included, but imagine this: A grown man abducts a 4-year-old girl from a playground. He takes her to a forest, rapes her, sodomises her, burns her with cigarettes, beats her half to death, pisses on her, then strangles her, and dumps her body in a dumpster.

This is what we are talking about here. These things happen all over the world, probably on a daily basis. No matter what the grown man have experienced in his life, there is no excuse for his actions. What he did was wrong, wrong, wrong, and can never be excused. Although I can see that even murder can sometimes be excused, premeditated murder of an innocent, defenseless individual, is wrong, and that is a moral absolute. The same goes for rape, at least in the cases in which a man attacks a woman in the dark in a park, drags her into the bushes, and rapes her. The same goes for many cases involving robbery and theft too. I am not talking about the poor, unemplyed man with a family to feed, who steals some money or food to feed his family. That can be excused. But when a wealthy person steals, cheats or robs to become even wealthier, then he is violating a moral absolute. Of course, in this last example, we are entering a moral "greyzone". The same is the case in a bar fight, in which two guys start figthing because of what the one guy said, and then during the fight, one of them falls over, hits his head on a chair and dies. Then we are also in the "greyzone". There are a million greyzones. The greyzone-area is very large. But still, when looking at the most extreme examples (such as the first one I portrayed), it should be evident to all people that there is a core of morality, a "senter", a leading, universal principle that should be evident to all people, of all cultures, races and nationalities. If there is not, then why is there a section on this board for sexual abuse? Why do we have laws against such things? Laws against murder and rape? If it was just a matter of protecting society from dangerous individuals, why not send them to a desert island with a great hotel, swimming pool, tennis court, bar etc? Why punish them, if what they did was not morally wrong?

The answer to your question lies also in the motive of the person committing the act. But I understand why this is a difficult question. Greyzones can be very confusing.

jgnat

Well, it does pay to spell them out. Then we can take each one and ask ourselves, why is it absolute? Can it be taken to the extreme? For instance, most believe that murder is wrong, but some believe that execution is not murder. Still others equate steaks to murder.

Narkissos

Is the fact that some actions raise a quasi-unanimous reprobation (I say quasi-unanimous because it has to except the wrongdoers, or at least "something" in them) evidence of a "moral absolute"?

Constructing it as a "moral absolute" implies another "factual absolute": things like that do happen, no matter the weight of social reprobation. There is no crimeless society, regardless of its laws.

To me this whole discussion really shows how empty the word "absolute" is.

jstalin

So if absolute morality is true, then Hinduism can't be true. Atheism is false. Agnosticism is untenable.

I think your logic is flawed here. Atheism doesn't negate absolute morality. You've failed to make the argument in the other direction.

If moral laws depend on god, then god must be absolutely moral. Does morality exist independent of god, or does god determine morality? If morality exists outside god, then god can't really exist, or if he does, his credibility as an all-powerful being is severely harmed. If god determines what's moral, then morality cannot be absolute. God can change his mind (and he has) at any given time, since he's all-powerful.

Let me borrow an old phrase: "I think, therefore I am." That is the aboslute. I am, therefore I have a unique claim on my life. My life exists, so I naturally have a right to that life. My right is independent of anyone else's right, therefore all other personal rights flow from that. My liberty is my ability to use my life as I see fit, as long as I'm not infringing on someone else's life. My liberty leads to the use of my faculties to accumulate things - property - in voluntary interaction with other equally-free individuals. No god is needed.

God inserts rules which declare activities which do not harm other people as "sin." God's morality is an arbitrary set of rules above and beyond the basic morality of respecting your fellow human. In fact, god allows one to kill your fellow man if he commands it. God is exempt from his moral rules and he can exempt anyone he wishes from his rules. It's similar to a corrupt dictatorship.

press any key

Thanks Hellrider, it good to get some specific examples to illustrate the question can I paraphase you and say you are proposing an absolute truth that we shouldn't commit atrocities on individuals, especailly the young, that cannot defend themselves that is something that you believe, I believe, 99.9 of the people reading this will believe, and yet some people do not believe as it happens every day, therefore it is not absolute you and I may believe it absolutely, with every fibre of our being, but it is not with every fibre of everyones being, so it is not absolute

from wiki

absolute

Loosed from any limitation or condition; uncontrolled; unrestricted; unconditional; as, absolute authority, monarchy, sovereignty, an absolute promise or command.
absolute power
an absolute monarch
Complete in itself; perfect; consummate; faultless.
absolute perfection
absolute beauty
Quotations
- So absolute she seems, And in herself complete. —John Milton

so if you are only speaking for 99.9% of the population you are not speaking for the absolute if you are attempting to point at a moral code that God put in every man woman and child made in his image, then I say that mankind is just too varied, from the pope to the man in your illustration there is someone who believes and feels every shade from black to white I am not defending them only saying they exist, and society has a right to do whatever it takes to make sure they do no harm cheers pak

Terry

I think we're saying vaguely the same thing. I've just reached a point where I'm suspicious of clarity. If it sounds too right it probably isn't (at least pertaining to spiritual things)

You crack me up!

Would you say that about the total on a restaurant check? Oh, you said "spiritual" things.

But, that's invisible opinions.

If you had glaucoma would you consider that optimum sight? The vagueness would improve your perception?

If you were hard of hearing that would clarify the speech of others?

Of course not.

I think what you are actually saying is that clarity brings with it the evidence of contradiction and you aren't comfortable with having your favorite beliefs tested because you'd have to start all over again.

Or, am I putting words in your mouth?

I'm not picking on you; I'm just startled by what you said about clarity.

Absolute truths have been admitted....

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