*Worships the Gumbygodhead
Let cut JWs some slack on Christ's status. They might be right.
by Spectrum 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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peacefulpete
It is relevent that it is in the nonMarkan Matthean material and the Didachi that this low Christology is found. Secondary and conservatively Jewish.
Paul did inherit a brand, a more Greek version it seems, as he admitted. He may well have been uncomfortable with aspects of it. -
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heathen
I agree with them to an extent that jesus was not equal to the almighty and also agree that he was an angel before his birth in bethlehem . They believe that the Great Crowd are not part of the new covenant but are simply servants to the God appointed organization . Much like the jews had proselytes from surrounding nations that were not jewish but could still worship along with the jews but could not have any authority or even serve in the temple duties . Jesus was promoted after his resurrection to a higher position and does have all authority in heaven and earth .
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LittleToe
Heathen:
the jews had proselytes from surrounding nations that were not jewish but could still worship along with the jews but could not have any authority or even serve in the temple duties
The flaw in your logic is that it wasn't just the proselytes that couldn't work in the temple, but eleven of the other tribes, as well. Further, the priestly Levitical tribe never had any kings - an interesting safeguard against the completely merging of religion and state!
Jesus was promoted after his resurrection to a higher position and does have all authority in heaven and earth.
So ostensibly in your personal theology he's now become God then, right? If not, how does he differ, from what you've just stated?
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catbert
How about some metaphysical thought. God was not created. He exists outside of time and space. No one can see god and live. Jesus was created as a physical interface into a universe with physical laws such as time. He is Gods tool for creation and communication. When it came time to create this universe, God first created his tool, Jesus.
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LittleToe
Was your tool created in time and space or out of it?
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ObservingTexan
These type of arguments are nothing but an endless circle. John 1:1 says "... an the Word (Jesus) was GOD." That's good enough for me. Human logic is unable... see there I go... never mind.
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Narkissos
Leolaia,
I would be hard-pressed to regard the Christianity of the non-Markan portions of Matthew or the Didache as "a child of Greek thought".
Indeed, but how christological are they? I mean, do they offer an alternative (i.e. "low") christology or no christology at all?
Moreover, are the later Jewish-Christian adoptianist/separatist doctrines really low christologies or rather low "Jesulogies"? Is whatever (call it christos or pneuma) comes upon the man Jesus at baptism and leaves him before or on the cross any lower than the Pauline Son of God?
catberg,
Your thought, although expressed in modern categories, is very close to the ancient conceptions of the logos, as appear in Hellenistic Judaism (e.g. Philo) and christianity (e.g. John, Hebrews, Justin Martyr etc.). The distinction between "begotten" and "created" only became important in the wake of 2nd-century Gnosticism.
Unfortunately metaphysics do not translate very well into modern categories. "Outside" being a spatial term, what is really meant by "outside of space"? (Same question for "before time"?)
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catbert
When the bible says all things were created "through" Jesus, what does it mean and why? Sounds to me like Jesus was some sort of tool or interface for God. Mans puny little brain: Man presently does not understand the substance of gravity. He can only measure it. Einstein implied gravity is a warping of spacetime. The connections between gravity, space and time are not something humans can get minds around easily, for now. Just as man has peered into the atom, I believe there is a possibilty someday there will be men who understand truths regarding time, space, and gravity. Not just measuring it, but understanding the substance of it, what it is. If God has always been, does it not make sense that he resides outside of the "universe", where time is just another physical property like gravity?