by booker-t 82 Replies latest jw friends
How about this? I have checked out the facts, and in my opinion they are there. In fact they are overwhelmingly there. This is not only a fact held by me, but by men and women over the history of time that many people would call intelligent and intellectual.
But that's OK, obviously you feel a need to proselytize your beliefs, and you are certainly entitled to that, as we are entitled to share ours.
Please read my post again and you will find the direct answer to your question.
I know A FEW xjws who joined dangerous Christian cults…
a few who went back to the WTS…
very few who committed suicide…
a few who became atheist…
one who became Muslim…
…and some who claim still to be JWs just that they are D’F don’t go to the meetings…. Oh, I almost forgot, a few became happy Christians!
Thinking soundly before writing posts helps me not to overreact!
I read your post through a couple of times, and I was left with that question. Hence, why I asked it. Your susequent post clarified it better. I did not see a reason for this statement:
Thinking soundly before writing posts helps me not to overreact!
But hey, that's OK!
Apostate kate
I have not told anyone they are wrong in any way. I respect your perspective on the person of Jesus. That is your personal experience with Jesus up to today. Tomorrow is another day. I fully respect that that is your human experience. Can you have a little mercy for me to have mine?
My church is no social club. We have a direction, a purpose based on non conditional love of all mankind and providing for their needs, and joy filled worship. I am truly happy that you are happy. Can you try to be happy for me?
Your words contradict themselves. You tell me that you never said anyone was wrong in any way, and then you proceed to tell me so far I haven't but that soon I may have a personal experience with Jesus, which will be the answer for me because it is for you. And I also may get touched by the noodly appendage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. What's the point? This is exactly the christian attitude that I have such a hard time dealing with. You say you have respect and all that but your words seem to say otherwise. What if I told you that it's great you believe in Jesus because of your personal experience up to today. Tomorrow is another day. Should I complete the sentence from the other side? Tomorrow is another day... and you may discover like I have that Jesus never existed. How does that feel to you?
Have your beliefs, I really could care less. I have nothing to offer anyone. If it makes you happy, believe all you want. Living in this country though it's awful hard to ignore the christian influence.
XJW4EVR
Do you know what "facts" are? And others beleived it so it must be a fact? I don't think that's makes anything a fact as you know is proven by 6 million JW's. And I am not proselytizing, I have nothing to offer you. I am subtly trying to point out that is exactly what you are doing. I just wish you and others would stop making me feel like I am missing out on something.
I think booker-t’s thread was not meant to start a Christian vs. non-Christian debate. I get the impression you are forcing this into a debate of that nature. I have read some Christian posters in the past complaining about atheists jumping in and starting heated debates, but this surly goes both ways. There is nothing wrong in debating this issue, many threads and posters do, so there is lots of opportunity to do so on other threads.
You saying “Think before you answer!” reminds me more of a warning or threat than an encouragement. It is surly not the usual end-line I have been reading so far. Or is it an implication that I was not thoughtful in my posting. I can’t help but feel when reading your posting on this thread that you are overreacting to comments not completely in line with your thinking, that you are easily offended when it comes to your faith in Jesus. I don’t believe in Jesus or the bible, however if you find happiness in your faith I am happy for you and any xjw who finally experience “real” Christian life.
Freetosee
XJW4EVRDo you know what "facts" are?
What a typically condescending question! That being said, yes I know what a fact is, especially in a historical context. Do you?
And others beleived it so it must be a fact? I don't think that's makes anything a fact as you know is proven by 6 million JW's
That is not what I said. Nice try, though.
And I am not proselytizing, I have nothing to offer you.
I knew that from the get go, I am glad that you have just realized that.
I am subtly trying to point out that is exactly what you are doing.
What exactly am I doing? Other than pointing out the fallacies in your arguements.
I just wish you and others would stop making me feel like I am missing out on something.
Sure, no problem with that. Of course you and others like you would have quit making me and others like me feel like we are less then intellectual for believing in Jesus.
The problem, is that whatever you wish to call yourself, free-thinker or open-minded or moral relativist, the fact is that the verything you point to Christians for being, intolerant, narrow-minded, etc. the same arguement can be made for you and people that think like you.
The fact is that it is human nature to show people a way that works for them, eg. every self-help book ever published. The real issue is that Christianity says that the problem is us, and that the solution is outside of us. This is something that people don't like, and won't accept.
Now if this is something that makes you feel bad, then there's a very simple solution. Don't involve yourself. I restrain myself on a daily basis from various threads. Either way the choice is really yours.
JWD is a forum where all points of view are expressed. (Long may it stay that way, too! We had enough of censorship / gagging while we were in the borg.)
Given that, a person can expect to hear a full range of opinions:
- From those you agree with, to those that are 180 degrees apart from that. (Even hear others challenge things that you might have determined were solid facts).
If there is even only one such thing as a fact, it would have to be this:
- no matter what your point of view is on a given matter, for whatever reasons - not everyone is going to agree with it.
That is life (for better or far worse) - and anyone viewing this discussion board had better be prepared for this.
Tomorrow is another day. Should I complete the sentence from the other side? Tomorrow is another day... and you may discover like I have that Jesus never existed. How does that feel to you?I don't really feel anything either way. It means that we are ever changing beings, ever learning. It means that right here right now I accept you for who you are and what you believe. I have utmost respect and admiration and share a common history with you. That is today.
Tomorrow is another day. I will still share the same history with you and I will still respect you. I will still care to get to know who you are because that is how I am. People usually go through changes in life and I am not a psychic to know what tomorrow will bring.
I was not alluding to anything more than that. I am truly sorry if it sounded as if I were. I never said that in the future you may have an experience with Jesus. I said up to this day, I respect who you are today and what you have experienced. You can equate my wordage of tomorrow is another day with; life goes on. For most of us, life will go on tomorrow.
Apostate Kate- All OK by me.
XJW4EVR
Do you think it's possible that your whole belief structure may be wrong? This is not meant to be condescending in any way but a serious question. Maybe this needs to be on another thread, as I have been meaning to ask believers this for a long time.
It is a human thing to want answers to all the hard questions, the big one being - Why do we grow old and die?
It is also human to come up with answers. Over the centuries past one of the big, important questions was: How come we did everything just like we did last year but this year our crops were a failure? We didn't get rain. Why? or, It rained too much. Why? We had a big hailstorm just as the corn was most fragile. Why? Going hungry or even starving to death was as serious as it gets. Next thing you know, people are looking to the sky as a the important source of life. Various forms of 'worship' evolved. Trying to do something that will have an impact on the forces beyond out control. This included sacrifices to appease a "somebody up there" who must be very fickle. We need to figure out what makes HIM unhappy and how to make HIM happy. It evolved into beliefs in powers beyond our control. It got organized and refined. It got corrupted and abused. But there was always an ANSWER for evrything, good or bad. Man is an answer junky.
One tribe puts together a nice little recipe that explains everything from Where did we come from to why did the crops fail. So, here comes organized Judaism which begets the messiah hope. Several hundred years later, when the jews are at their lowest ebb, messiahs start popping up everywhere. Jesus was one. 250-300 years later the whole story gets organized, some decent marketing and get some fresh material tacked onto that Old Testament which in turn helps revive that faithful little cult and viola! Hello Catholic Church! and away we go! A few centuries later Martin Luther comes along and shows everyone how they can start their own franchise with a variation on the Catholic "Jesus burger". Pretty soon the tinkerers have developed their own 'secret sauce' and come out with everything from the LDS, the Adventists, the Christian Scientists, the Russellites etc.
But the basic product is the Jesus/Savior/God come to earth/ransom payer myth.
What the hell? It works for a lot of people. Not me.
