A Witness was once bragging to me about the Witnesses opposing the political party called Nazis in Germany in the 30's. I asked the Witnesses what is the current Witness opposition strategy for opposing the neo-Nazis of today's environment. He never said another word to me on the subject.
The Nazis didn't go away. What are Witnesses doing TODAY to protest the Nazi (political) party?
Now the heck can they say they were politically neutral if they were protesting a political party? That's hard core politics. So, which way is it? Were they neutral or not? Because they're claiming both and they claim they are virtuous both ways.
If they were not politically involved, they could not protest a political party, and if they were politically involved, they are hypocrites and liars. So Jehovah's Witnesses . . . which is it?
What are apostate lies?
by vitty 63 Replies latest jw friends
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garybuss
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Leolaia
The first stance taken by the Watchtower was at once obsequious and duplicitous, but it was not a "compromise". They were first and foremost concerned that they could carry on their meetings and preaching activities. They were prepared to suspend these for a time, only on the basis that a very short cessation would allow them to explain their position and resume.
True, that was doubtless much of the motivation behind their conciliatory stance in 1933. But does this mean it was not a compromise, because they were not "cozying up" to Hitler "on a sustained basis" in the same manner as "mainstream churches" ended up doing? I do not agree. I would say that what they did was much less compromising and less substantial than what other churches did (i.e. offering material support, special privileges to party members, serve as chaplains in the military, etc.), but this not mean that their actions involved no compromise of principles or "neutrality" (in its politicized Rutherfordian sense). Lest it be forgotten, Rutherford taught at the time that all the worldly governments and institutions are part of "Satan's Organization," with whom compromise is forbidden and from whom they are to expect resistence and persecution. He taught that it would have been a grave compromise to soften their stinging condemnation of the elements of "Satan's Organization" when faced by persecution from them, or to try to "appeal" to them:
*** w30 3/15 p. 87 par. 27 Jehovah's Royal House***
It is that class that keep the commandments of Jehovah that must give the witness and that receive the attacks of the enemy. (Rev. 12: 17) They refuse to compromise in any way with any part of Satan’s organization, because they are wholly for Jehovah.
*** w31 6/15 p. 180 par. 12 Esther and Mordecai Part 3 ***
The “servant” class is no part of the Devil’s organization, but is surrounded by it. The ruling factors legislate against God’s servant and construe the laws of the land against the “servant”. This is a test upon the anointed of the Lord God. The faithful meet this test boldly and with full confidence in Jehovah.... God’s faithful witnesses stand true to him and maintain their integrity toward him. This has been so particularly since 1922. In that time the faithful followers of Christ, under the supervisory direction of the angels of the Lord, have had to do with the pouring out of God’s vials of reproof and judgment against the ecclesiastics and other portions of Satan’s organization. The remnant must and will be faithful and true to God and Christ and will continue to boldly tell the truth in this time of judgment....It has been said, often by those who claim to be consecrated to God, that the wiser course would be to “put on the soft pedal” concerning the clergy and say little or nothing about them, instead of being so emphatic against them; that it would be more expedient to speak with love toward them and thus increase one’s influence rather than to be branded as ‘uncompromising foes of organized Christianity’. Anyone, though, who really loves God and his cause and serves the Lord, must of necessity be an “uncompromising foe of organized Christianity” so called, which system is in fact a part of the Devil’s organization....It may be asked, Did Mordecai act with discretion and wisdom? Could he not have bowed down and shown honor to Haman, like other men, and at the same time have some mental reservation that he was doing so merely as a matter of form and not in sincerity? Could he not for policy’s sake have followed the course that many do, to stand up and take off their hats when music is played to the honor of some earthly ruler? Was it necessary for him to make himself conspicuous by being so unbending? The commandment to do honor to Haman was a great test to Mordecai, and particularly with reference to his integrity toward God....
For this reason the remnant must take a bold and unbending stand against each and every part of Satan’s organization, and particularly that religious element that dishonors God and defames his holy name....Today this remnant, in obedience to God’s commandments, diligently and faithfully give the testimony of Jesus Christ to the nations of the world, which duty the Lord has committed to the remnant. They are telling the truth and refusing to make any manner of compromise whatsoever with any part of Satan’s organization. Therefore Satan is very mad, and his chief representatives on the earth, the clergy, are also exceedingly mad, and all together they go forth to make war with the remnant of the seed of God’s organization. (Rev. 12 : 17)
*** w31 7/1 p. 196 par. 11 Esther and Mordecai Part 4 ***
Let others who claim to be followers of Christ refrain from saying anything about the enemy organization if they so desire, and let them pursue the course of least resistance, but let the faithful who will maintain their integrity toward God make it clearly to be known that they are on the Lord’s side and that by his grace they will tell the truth as God will now have it told. All the faithful remnant must now be identified as God’s people. This, of course, puts each and every one of them in a perilous position, because they are marked by the enemy for slaughter....
We know it would be wrong for the remnant to compromise with earthly rulers, because the faithful must not “go down to Egypt for help” and compromise with the world because of the powerful influence thereof. (Isa. 31: 1) The going of Esther in before the king did not foreshadow the remnant appealing to worldly rulers. The appearing of Esther before the king to make supplication in behalf of her people foreshadowed the appearing of the remnant before God to make prayer and supplication to Jehovah in the name of Christ [the true "higher powers", which are not "worldly governments"] for guidance, help and deliverance.... Because the remnant is faithful in thus doing and in telling the testimony concerning the kingdom the enemy seeks the destruction of the remnant. For the sake of the name of Jehovah they properly pray for the destruction of the enemy.
Had Rutherford followed his own advice, he would have realized that soft-pedaling his polemic attack on worldly governments and appealing to the Nazi authorities ("making supplication on behalf of his people") would compromise the very principles he espoused. When the Nazis confiscated the Magdeburg property and started arresting JWs in 1933, he would have stridently denounced such actions as the work of the Devil, admonished the Nazi authorities to "break away from Satan's control" (WT, 6/15/1931, p. 29), and appealed to Jehovah and Christ (the real "higher authorities") to protect his people. But that is not what he (and the other Watchtower leaders) did. This is what happened:
- He prepared a Declaration of Facts, translated into German by the German branch overseer, requesting "that the government [of Germany] appoint a committee of impartial men to hold conference with a committee of our organization and that a fair and impartial examination of our literature and our work be made, to the end that all misunderstanding may be removed" (1934 Yearbook, p. 143).
- In explaining the views of JWs, Rutherford says nothing about the government of Germany being a part of "Satan's Organization", or that it is in opposition to God and his purposes, or that it will shortly be destroyed by God. Instead, he "soft-pedals" his usual polemic and has only complimentary and positive things to say about them, even claiming that God will bring to fruition the principles advocated by the government:
"We are certain that ... our books and other literature [i.e. describing Satan's Organization and its impending destruction in Armageddon] have not been carefully examined by the rulers and hence are not properly understood...The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position; and we further state in our literature the reason for the existence of oppressive Big Business and the wrongful political religious inflence, because the Holy Scriptures plainly declare that these oppressive instruments proceed from the Devil [i.e. Rutherford focuses on False Religion and Big Business as parts of Satan's Organization, but neglects to also designate the government as Satanic as well]... Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart....The people of Germany have suffered great misery since 1914 and have been the victims of much injustice practiced upon them by others. The nationalists have declared themselves against all such unrighteousness and announced that 'Our relationship to God is high and holy.' Since our organization fully endorses these righteous principles and is engaged solely in carrying forth the work of enlightening the people, Satan by subtlety endeavors to set the government against our work and destroy it" (pp. 135-142). Did this fairly represent the views of JWs towards the worldly governments? Rutherford elsewhere wrote: "The political wing of the enemy’s organization (1926) consists of three empires, twenty-one kingdoms, forty republics, five Mohammedan nations, five dominions, and four protectorates; a total of seventy-eight. Sixty of these nations claim to be Christian; and all of them, except five, are members of the League of Nations.... The political wing of Satan’s organization directs all the official work of the armies, and navies, with their guns, airplanes and poison gas; and manipulates the various government offices in all lands, from the chief executive down to the humblest official.... All these elements that go to make up the visible part of Satan's organization are being gathered together and assembled for the great battle of Armageddon" (Deliverance, 1926, pp. 278-280).
- The letter addressed to Reichskanzler that was submitted with the Declaration was even more misleading about the JW's real views about worldly governments: "The Bible Students are fighting for the same high, ethical goals and ideals that the National Government of the German Reich proclaimed regarding the relationship of man to God, namely: honesty of the created towards the Creator! .... [T]here are no opposing views in the relationship between German Bible Students and the National Government of the German Reich, but that, to the contrary, respecting the purely religious and apolitical goals and objectives of the Bible Students, it can be said that these are in complete harmony with the similar goals of the National Government".
- The Declaration circulated in Germany also stresses that the Watchtower Society has done charitable work to help the German people, "at a time when all of Germany was in deep distress". This charitable work done by JWs on behalf of Germany is then contrasted with the Catholics and Jews of America who "insult the national government in Germany" and "attempt to boycott the government in Germany because of the National Socialist Party's announced principle". The "announced principle" was apparently the following, quoted approvingly as "the just principles enunciated by the Chancellor of the Reich himself" in the Watchtower letter to the Reichskanzler: "We demand freedom for all religious faiths in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or offend the moral and ethical sense of the German race. The party as such represents the point of view of a positive Christianity without binding itself to any one particular confession. It fights against the Jewish materialist spirit within and without, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our people can only be achieved from within on the principle: COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" (Section 24, 25 Points Platform of the Nazi Party, adopted on 24 February 1920).
The anti-Nazi boycott criticized in the Declaration was started to "call for an immediate cessation of the brutal treatment being inflected on German Jewry," which at the time was directed at Jewish-owned businesses in Germany [*]. The Nazi attacks on Jewish businesses were, of course, "fighting against the Jewish materialist spirit (judisch-materialistischen Geist) within" in accordance with the announced principle of protecting the "common good", and the German version of the Declaration later published in the Yearbook similarly refers to "the same materialistic spirit (materialistische Geist) that caused the persecution of Jesus Christ" in the section on the "Jews", which otherwise speaks negatively about the Handelsjuden (commercial Jews) who "exploit and oppress the peoples of many nations" through Big Business. Not only does the German Declaration criticize the boycott, but it also repeats the German claim that the boycott was intended to insult and libel the German people. In response to the boycott, Goebbels announced the German government's own counter-measures against the American boycott which would consist of a German boycott of Jewish businesses and warned that if the American boycott continues "the boycott [against the Jews] would be resumed ... until German Jewry has been annihilated". The German boycott occurred on 1 April 1933, escalating their attacks on Jewish businesses, and the American boycott was renewed in response afterwards. The Declaration was distributed in Germany after 25 June 1933, in the wake of these events. It is thus very interesting that it took the German side of the matter and gave no criticism to the "principles advocated by the government of Germany" despite the anti-Semitism in the principles, and even criticized the Catholics and Jews in America for insultingly boycotting Germany (in contrast to the charitable work the Society has done for Germany).
- When the property was confiscated in April 1933, the Society asked the US State Department to help negotiate with the German government to have their assets returned and the ban lifted. In Rutherford terminology, he asked a part of Satan's Organization for help in having the ban revoked. When the efforts failed, Rutherford's representative M. C. Harbeck directed the German JWs on 28 August 1933 to abide by the ban and stop preaching: "As authorized by the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, and especially as the proxy of the President, Judge Rutherford, I should like to ask you herewith to submit to all current governmental and police authorities' regulations [without] exception. Above all, I would like to entreat you not to disseminate banned publications and not to hold any meetings or lectures without permission issued by the police". This is diametrically opposed to Rutherford's teaching at the time that the remnant must fearlessly preach without compromise and "take a bold and unyielding stance" towards Satan's Organization. Also, Harbeck sent a petition to German government leaders in 29 September 1933 as the WT&BTS's emissary, stating that "all members of the Bible Student fellowship salute the National Socialist government because Hitler and his state acknowledge themselves to be Christians." Again, this can only be regarded as a compromising statement. When these efforts failed, Rutherford then published an article in the 12/1/1933 Watchtower that reversed course and directed the JWs to defy any persecution and reject any earlier directions from the Watchtower Society that claimed otherwise:
"No one at the Watch Tower office has any authority to tell you what to do. If you are one of the remnant and in the temple the instruction from the Head of the temple class is plain and clear. If anyone would tell you not to preach the truth, that would not relieve you of the responsibility in any manner whatsoever. Christ, the Head of the temple, says, 'What you have learned in the temple go out and boldly declare to others, regardless of all the opposition and persecution.' If you love God you will have boldness in this day of judgment. (1 John 4: 17, 18) It is true that you may be killed for telling the truth. All the remnant must have their change sometime. All the faithful apostles died because of their faithfulness to the Lord....If one of the temple class, learning the great truths now due to be proclaimed, should quietly hold these to himself and avoid an opportunity to tell them, and at the same time pursue a course of action that he thinks would save him from criticism by the enemy's agents, he is thereby denying the Lord, within the meaning of Jesus' words above quoted, because he is failing to be obedient to the Lord's commandment....Satan's organization is powerful and wicked beyond the description of words. That organization is fatally bent on the destruction of Jehovah's witnesses. Satan and his agents use all the power they possess to accomplish that wicked end. Doubtless the enemy will succeed in killing some of the faithful, but not even that fact will in any wise deter the faithful witnesses from rendering full obedience to the Lord" (pp. 328-330). And, with that counsel reasserted, many German JWs from 1934 onward bravely opposed the Nazis and continued distributing Rutherford's politically inflammatory literature within Germany at great risk. As this article makes clear, to let up on the preaching merely because of intense persecution and ban would cause one to lose eternal life in Gehenna. So many JWs followed Rutherford's admonition and as he accurately predicted, some were killed for this. But this course is not what they were advised to do in the summer of 1933. They were told by the Society not to take this uncompromising stand but to abide by the government's wishes.
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Leolaia
bttt, didn't spend all afternoon putting that together for it to get buried...
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Narkissos
LOL.
Again, when I read this I can't help thinking that Rutherford (I) might have been really sympathetic to the Nazi regime and its breaking away from classical politics. The WT afaik never went that far out of its way to flatter the ideology of any other government.
Also, how circumstancial was the anti-semitic talk? When did Rutherford forsake the Russellite "Zionism" in favour of the substitution theory ("spiritual Israel")? (Open question, I don't remember.)
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DannyHaszard
Ohhhh,can't you just feel the love?Posted yesterday http://www.speroforum.com/blog/entry.asp?ENTRY_ID=792 To anyone reading this, Mr. Hazzard puts out a lie. Yes, he is an apostate and will do whatever he can to thwart Jehovah God's purpose.Our core doctrine, in simplest terms, is that Jehovah God will restore his Kingdom throughout all creation.
The year 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times, or times of the Nations. In that year, Christ was given rulership of the Kingdom in the heavens, as evidenced by the signs foretold in Matthew, chapter 24 ~ "What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?'People have a choice, yes, in whether they want to 'come drink life's water free' [Revelation 22'> or not. We do not do a judging work. We do as Matthew 24:14 commissions God's servants to do, preach the good news of God's Kingdom (also part of this sign in that this would pe done to the ends of the earth. We follow Christ and the apostolic example of going to the people.
Those who want to serve God according to the standards of his Holy Scriptures are drawn to that message of hope and choose to be baptized in harmony with Jesus Christ's example and command found at Matthew 28:19,20.
Some, after coming to know the truth according to God's Word, have chosen to live their lives the way they want to. Others, such as Mr. Hazzard, go beyond that and work directly to thwart God's wlll from being accomplished. They do this in their chosen role as apostates. They act like 'their father, the devil,' who set the example in heaven for apostates by continually 'accusing his brothers [other angels'>' with lies and deceits.Like Satan, who drew other angels after him who are now demons, apostates do win over converts with their false reasonings. You will always be able to tell an apostate from someone who has just left our faith. Apostates are filled with hatred and are motivated to turn others away from a message of love and hope.You can choose to believe what you will. You can also choose to base your beliefs on true knowledge. Talk to Jehovah's Witnesses if you are really interested in knowing the hope of living forever in a cleansed, paradise earth without fear of crime, suffering, or even hatred. They will show you from God's Word why those hopes are based on solid faith in God's promises and prophecies ~ many of which have already been fulfilled.
Mr. Hazzard and his kind will continue to post after this and will find a way to denigrate most of what I have posted. But you have to ask yourself, what are they really offering? Freedom from "The Watchtower?" You can choose to "slave" for a God of love, or "slave" for the opposers to such with hatred.
I am not an elder, a ministerial servant (kind of comparable to a deacon in other religions), or a pioneer (one who devotes fifty or more hours to the preaching work each month). I am a father and husband who goes about making a living for his family while trying to be the best possible servant of God I can be. Is our religion perfect? Of course not. We are imperfect people trying to do God's will as best we can.
The person, Ricardo, brings out that we have been subject to scandals. Yes, we have. But we continue to try to do all things according to God's Word. Most of the individuals invovlved in those things were punished according to God's counsel. Some, for the safety of the congregation, were disfellowshipped. Yes, that is a form of shunning.
But is it a form of love to allow unrepentant ones to remain in a congregation where they can prey upon others to work their own selfish ways? Or is the better cousre to remove them and hope that by doing so they will be moved to repent and return to the Christ-like way of love?
Come to one of our conventions this summer and see for yourself whether we are made up of the lies that Mr. Hazzard spews out - or - whether we work at putting on the fruitage of God's spirit, namely, love, joy, peace, and so forth.
I think you will be marvelously surprised. Love or hate ~ the choice is yours. ----------------------------------- Danny's response:You worship your god with hatred and revenge
You don't know me.Doesn't your Bible say at Matthew 7:1 "Stop judging others".
Why is it the Jehovah's Witnesses cannot stand critical information,when they do it to everybody else?If fact they come to our door steps and demand that we make a critical examination of our belief systems and yet get hysterical if we show them their errors.
The CORE doctrine upon which all your tenets are based is that Jesus had his second coming in 1914.This is a BIG error by the Watchtower that needs to be resolved.
Stop shooting the messenger. -
IP_SEC
What are apostate lies?
This is one of the questions that got me moving toward the door.
Q. What is apostacy?
A. A person or org who falls away from the truth.Ok then exJWs and all of Christendom are really apostates then eh?
Q. What makes the lies of apostate Christendom (trinity, hell, etc) less dangerous than the lies of exJW apostates?
A. ... ... ... ...Q. Why can I talk to apostate christendummers and listen to their lies in service with no ill affect on my faith, but the lies of exJW apostates are spiritual porn and can lead me right out of the truth with so much as a glance?
A. ... ... ... ... -
AuldSoul
Come to one of our conventions this summer and see for yourself whether we are made up of the lies that Mr. Hazzard spews out - or - whether we work at putting on the fruitage of God's spirit, namely, love, joy, peace, and so forth.
Couldn't have said it better myself. At their conventions they work at "putting on" the fruitage of God's spirit. It's amazing how honest this fellow is. Fruitage is something that grows from within. Something put on has no roots within a person, it is a show, a form of godliness.
Danny, don't take it to heart. This fellow says they are not involved in a judging work in one paragraph and then discusses the judging work they engage in at length. Anyone who reads that person's thoughts will know how convoluted the reasoning is. It reflects very accurately on the source of that reasoning, the Governing Body.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
Terry
the JWs in their "hostility" towards their government...remember these were the days Rutherford was publishing his rants against the Catholics, Nazis, Big Business, Jews, Communism, the League of Nations, former Bible Students, the US government, and anything else that he construed to be a part of "Satan's Organization". The message was 100% hostile towards the Nazis,
Ladies and Gentlemen.....
a moment of sanity, please!
Rutherford was the voice of Jehovah's Witnesses. Rutherford foamed at the mouth with rhetoric against:
1.Catholics
2.Nazis
3.Big Business
4.Jews
5.Communism
6.League of Nations
7.Former Bible Students
8.The U.S. government
9.Christendom
10.Secular Humanists
Ask yourself this question:
If you are against EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING how do you get credit for being NEUTRAL about anything?
What do I mean? The forces in WWII which opposed each other were: Communist, Democratic, Fascist.
By being against all three of these in what
meaningful waywas Rutherford NEUTRAL?Hitler had been clearly against the JEWS as a people and a religion; so was Rutherford.
Hitler opposed Great Britain and the U.S.; so was Rutherford.
How was RUTHFORD neutral?
Now ask yourself another important question: what is the nature and source of Rutherford's HOSTILITY?
Rutherford's final solution was almost identical to Hitler's own!! Utter destruction of one's identified enemies!
Only at the point where the Nazi government recognized there was nothing to be gained from a hand's off approach of the bible students did
Rutherford cease his (non-neutral) efforts to display a sympathetic alliance with Hitler's hatred of Jews and the Anglo-American alliance.
Don't forget, Rutherford came up with a bogus doctrine
Re-interpreting the explanation of who the SUPERIOR AUTHORITIES were in Romans 13.
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Leolaia
Narkissos....Bear in mind that the statements about the boycott and the "Jewish-materialism spirit" probably originated from the German branch overseer rather than Rutherford (tho it is not known whether Balzereit OK'd the Hitler letter with Rutherford beforehand). Here are scans of the relevant portions:
Rutherford's own views on the Jews in the 1930s (emphasizing their commercialistic, avaricious, and selfish "cheating" nature), are well-expressed in the scans below, starting with Rutherford's book Vindication, vol. 2 (published in 1932):
Similar statements are found in a 15 December 1933 Watchtower:
From Rutherford's 1937 book Enemies:
From Rutherford's 1934 booklet Favored People:
Note that he blames the Jews' eviction from Palestine on their rejection of Jesus as Messiah, and claims that a Jew who "does not believe and serve God and Jesus Christ ... is not really a Jew and is not entitled to be known by that name". By this time he has abandoned Russell's Zionist expectations of the return of Jews to Palestine, for these descendents of Abraham are not really "Jews", they are part of Satan's Organization. In the 1920s, Rutherford still retained the Christian Zionism of his predecessor....yet even as early as 1924 he was expressing himself in similar terms...saying that Jews who do not serve Jesus Christ are not really Jews and thus heirs to the promise. Note his reply to an anti-Semite in which he voices this view, in addition to acknowledging that the self-professed Jews claimed to be "exploiting" and "trimming" Gentiles do in fact "exploit and skin the people":
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FlyingHighNow
At our KH and assemblies, they hinted at what the lies were. They said that apostates were saying there were too many rules. They said that apostates had returned to, and I quote, "The sickening teaching of the trinity." They whined about apostates criticizing the governing body.
I personally was quite curious about what apostates were saying. The society warned us not to accept apostate literature or to throw it out immediately, even burn it. I knew I would have to read it should I ever come across it, in spite of my fears of being tainted by it. Darn it, no one ever mailed me any apostate literature!
It wasn't until I hit the internet in 1999 and put in Jehovah's Witnesses into the search engine, innocently looking for the official WT website that I ran across a couple of websites talking about Ray Franz and others who had been unfairly dealt with and kicked out over barely anything. I couldn't help but to read them, and I realized that the rumors afloat about Ray were inaccurate. I didn't check into ex jw sites with a purpose until the autumn of 2001 though. That's when I first found Beyond JW's, JWD and the site with the eye on it, that is where I linked here from. I started writing an elder from the Bethelite guest book who was suffering doubts. I ordered Crisis of Conscience and wow. That is when I became the gumchewing apostate that I am. I'm real scary to my sister. She won't even contact me if they think they're dying or someone has died. That's how harmful she thinks I am. *Sigh*
I joined Women Awake. Some nasty people caused problems so that many ladies, I hope they were ladies, stopped posting there. That is when I finally broke down and joined JWD.
