One of this biggest teachings present in mostly ALL Christian denominations is the idea that the Bible is infallibile. My question is, where does the Bible say this?
I know of many scriptures that point to the idea that what was written was directed by God, but where does the idea that what written is totally without error originate?
Even more importantly where does the idea that Christian scripture is totally without error come from. It almost seems like a contradiction in teaching, especially the idea that Christ basically told many people 'believe in me and be saved' but yet most Christians through the centuries have dominated their fellow believers with many 'teachings' and 'interpretations' all originating from the idea that the Bible (Christian Scripture especially) is a divine revelation, word by word given to us by God.
What are you guys thinking? I know where the cards are going to fall with some of you, but I thought it might be fun to throw this out there. I especially want to hear from the "infallibility" crowd who hold to this concept.
-drew
Infallibility of Scripture
by drew sagan 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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drew sagan
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Warlock
For me, it comes from the WTS illustration about the boss dictating a letter to his secretary to type and that is how God used men , by his holy spirit, to write the bible. It made sense to me and still does. Obviously, you have to have faith to believe it.
Warlock
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Apostate Kate
There are many reasons for this, one is that Jesus himself referred to the Bible completly so when one believes Jesus did the things that are recorded he did and said, it colaborates the OT. Jesus believed they were true. The NT is the Gospel, the truth written by ones who seen and heard Jesus. If the letters were lies, someone at that time would have said so.
There are fulfilled prophecies between the OT and NT to colaborate that it was God's word. Unless a bnunch of psychics wrote them, which I find rediculaous. Even Nostradamus was vague in everything he predicted. The OT predictions and discription of Jesus are accurate down to the description of his death.
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drew sagan
The point of this thread was to come at this from a little bit differant angle than this. Let me clarify.
Let us all suppose that we are in total agreement that the Bible as we know it was directed by God and contains the message he wants for mankind. Of course, if we agree upon this idea we will probably be in agreement that the purpose of Gods word is to give a Witness to his son, Jesus and to proclaim his name throughout the earth.
Let us say we are in complete agreement with the above statement. With that said, where does the Bible teach that each and every verse is indeed a divine revelation. Paul recorded things he refered to as his own opinion, so that means that Pauls opinion was recorded as a divine revelation from God?
My real question is that have Christians been looking at scripture the wrong way? For centuries the interpretation and views at to what the 'truth' is concerning this message from God has divided many, straying away from the more fundamental and basic truths taught by Jesus. Is the Bible really teaching us to pursue such a course of dogmatic force or is it telling us something much more simple?
Is it telling us instead to simply reflect upon the message, as given in scripture and let the spirit guide you. To believe in what is invisible. To simply have faith, to believe.
That's where I was really heading with this discussion. -
M.J.
I like your angle on this.
Just another thought. If the specific protestant canon of scriptures is infallible, then the folks who determined this canon were inspired and infallible in their determination.
With that said, where does the Bible teach that each and every verse is indeed a divine revelation.
Playing devil's advocate,
If you begin with the presupposition that the bible isn't infallible, it wouldn't matter even if the bible did say it was infallible, because, you know, it isn't infallible...
If you begin with the presupposition that the bible isn't infallible, then it's a subjective exercise in determining which portions are factual and which portions are flawed. What if you decided that the words recorded regarding Jesus saying 'believe in me and be saved' was fallible?
I suppose you can make an argument that even the Bible must be weighed by our judgment and "spirit", and that prevailing themes conveyed are born from Godly inspiration...and that disputing semantics is petty...
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the dreamer dreaming
dont forget that those who say it is infallible are the same ones who cannot see any contradictions in the bible either...
I have seen websites documenting hundreds of them. (^_^)
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Terry
There are many reasons for this, one is that Jesus himself referred to the Bible completly so when one believes Jesus did the things that are recorded he did and said, it colaborates the OT. Jesus believed they were true. The NT is the Gospel, the truth written by ones who seen and heard Jesus. If the letters were lies, someone at that time would have said so.
Let me see if I understand what you just said. Jesus referred to the Bible, eh? And where do you read that Jesus referred to the Bible? Why, IN THE BIBLE! If this isn't circular reasoning; I don't know what is! Moreover, are you saying Jesus carried around his pocket scriptures printed on onionskin and bound in calfskin with his own words in red? Certainly not. The majority of Romans and Jews were unable to read and write much else but their own name. People didn't have __a bible__in their house. People were read to. Jews would go to their local synagogue and be read to from a scroll. The majority of Jews around Jerusalem did not even speak Hebrew anymore; they spoke common Greek. They would be familiar with the Greek translation; the Septuigent.
When exactly do you think there was an actual canon for the Old Testament? In Jesus' day? No.
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Terry
Anybody could write a Jesus story. Anybody.
If you liked somebody's story you could have it copied. If you had a copy of somebody else's story and you didn't like some part
which you disagreed with--guess what? You could have a copy made that changed the part you didn't agree with.
There were thousands of Jesus tales floating around in the first three centuries. Take your pick of what way you liked to hear it.
The more distant from Jesus day; the more miraculous.
If you start with Mark's gospel Jesus is not a superhero and is mostly angry and distraught.
Each new draft punches up his super-hero status until you get to John and suddenly he is GOD!
There is not only nothinginfallibleabout scripture; there is nothing to indicate there was consistancy to any of the retold tales until redactors continually edited and organized it syntopically.
The Scriptures you have today accurately reflect what the TRANSLATOR wanted you to read.
If you disbelieve me just take a look at what your own precious WATCHTOWER TRANSLATION did to the bible in order to prop up its pet doctrines. -
Shazard
My 2 cents. Weather it is truth or mistruth written in Bible depends if you understand WHAT it is written. Let me demonstrate it with very stupid example, but you will understand. When you read that sheeps and goats will be separated, that DOES NOT mean that we will be turned into the animals first then separation starts. So in strict word I believe that if we understand literary the passages then Bible is pure lies or I don't have faith to believe that I will be turned into sheep.
So the point is. Bible tells truth. Question is can you reach it and understand it? -
drew sagan
Just read this quote from the book of John:
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Christian scripture is full of statments that speak of believing in Jesus and gaining eternal life. BELIEVING!
Where did Jesus ever say:
"And you must take the written record of me and my disciples that is complete without error and examine it verse by verse as divine revelation in order to know exactly what I want you to do and teach"
Instead he simply states that "whoever hears my word and believes im who sent me has eternal life".
What if the Bible is the record written by men who have preserved this message? What if everything is much more basic and simple than we would like to realize. Think about this...
The King James Version of the Bible is full of error and everybody knows this. But did God use it to help spread his message? Any reasonable Christian has to admit that God must have used it even though it contains error. It has carried the message, the message Jesus stated above in John 5.
All I see is Christians going to the Bible, trying to turn it into 'Proof' that God is real. 'No such book could ever sipmly be written by men', 'It is an infallible book, without error'. But in reality I think Christians do this because they need something PHYSICAL to put their faith in. They can't simply hear the message, take it in, believe and put faith in it, and live their lives in a way that follows their new belief.
Nobody in Jesus day had access to the kind of Bibles and literature, study information, ect. that we have today. Is our faith greater today than those who didn't have access to such things? Do we really grow as spiritual people because of such information. I really don't think so. Instead of putting faith in the message and letting Gods spirit guide the way, people use the Bible to cause division, debate, even hate one another.
For me fait isn't something built on the 'facts' that this book is without error and so everything in it must be believed. If I hear the message and believe it, even though I can't see any proof of its reality am I somehow beneath those who need proof?
Some times I just think it all might be simplier than we would like it to be.