Infallibility of Scripture

by drew sagan 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy
    I know of many scriptures that point to the idea that what was written was directed by God, but where does the idea that what written is totally without error originate?

    Not only that but where is it written that everything we are reading in the bible is inspired? There are many scriptures that refer to scriptures being inspired but none that say which ones are and which ones are not. There is no way, in my HP, that all the scriptures printed and read today are all inspired. There has been just waaaaay too much editing going on with the scriptures since they were first written. Not to mention adding too and taking away from. Even entire books! Because some really smart guys excersized free will.

    I would be surprised if more then a fraction is inspired. The rest has been polluted over the centuries. It’s like a puzzle now we have to figure out. If it wasn’t then there would be nothing left to debate.

    plm

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    drew

    I especially want to hear from the "infallibility" crowd who hold to this concept.

    I believe the original copies were perfect, (certainly not modern translations) the real question is are we "thoroughly furnished to every good work"? I believe we are.

    One of this biggest teachings present in mostly ALL Christian denominations is the idea that the Bible is infallibile. My question is, where does the Bible say this?

    Is this the pasage you are looking for:

    2Timothy 3:14

    But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.

    King James

    2Ti 3:16

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    inspiration of God--

    STRONGS G2315

    theopneustos

    theh-op'-nyoo-stos

    From G2316 and a presumed derivative of G4154; divinely breathed in: - given by inspiration of God.

    If they are God breathed, wouldn't they have to be "perfect"?

    D Dog

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    As some have mentioned already, it is just not known what specific texts the author of 2 Timothy considered to be "holy Scriptures" (3:15). Certainly it included the Torah, the Prophets, and other time-honored Scriptures that the Church came to accept as canonical. But there is no reason to assume that the author's Bible was identical to our present-day canon, and in fact the author suggests strongly that he considered other works as "inspired Scripture" which are not part of our Bible today.

    The phrase usually translated "all scripture is inspired of God" (pasa graphé theopneustos), with an anarthrous graphé "scripture," may be understood as "each and every scripture is inspired of God" or "the whole of scripture is inspired of God"; cf. pasa prophéteia graphés in 2 Peter 1:20. In other words, the phrase has as its scope the totality of graphé "scripture" and makes a blanket statement that all of it is "God-breathed" and useful for didactic purposes, without exception. Since other early Christian writings referred to apocryphal and pseudepigraphal writings as graphé (e.g. 1 Corinthians 2:9, James 4:5, 1 Clement 23:3, Barnabas 16:5, Hermas, Vision 2.3.4), the use of pasa in 2 Timothy 3:16 would seem to legitimize these extrabiblical graphé as "inspired of God" and "beneficial for teaching and reproving". In fact, Tertullian quoted 2 Timothy 3:16 to support his belief that the book of 1 Enoch was genuine, inspired Scripture (De Cultu Feminarum, 1.3), and even the NT quotes 1 Enoch as divinely-inspired "prophecy" (Jude 14-15, quoting 1 Enoch 1:9).

    Within 2 Timothy and the other Pastorals, there are a number of indications that extracanonical works (i.e. from a later standpoint, of course) were used by the author for admonishing and "reproving and setting things straight". The influence of Sirach 25:24 (apo gunaikos arkhé hamartias) can be discerned in 1 Timothy 2:13-14 and the metaphor in 2 Timothy 4:8 was earlier expressed in Wisdom 5:16. There are several divine titles in the Pastorals which derive from the apocrypha ("king eternal" in Tobit 13:7, 11 = 1 Timothy 1:17; "king of kings" in 2 Maccabees 12:15, 13:4 = 1 Timothy 6:15), tho the author did not necessarily use these books directly if the titles were in common use in Christian liturgy. The clearest evidence is the allusion to "Jannes & Jambres" in 2 Timothy 3:8, just a few verses before 2 Timothy 3:16, and the allusion is done to provide an example for "instruction and reproving", i.e. as a moral example. In fact, there is no story in the OT about Jannes and Jambres opposing Moses; this story comes from the apocryphal Book of Jannes and Jambres. Yet the author is using this story exactly the same way he says "all scripture" (pasa graphé) ought to be used. He thus had a rather different idea of what counted as "scripture" than we have today. And that would have been perfectly in line with other early Christians, who widely quoted and used extracanonical stories and texts...often designating them as "scripture" or as "inspired".

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    One important aspect is that most of the "early Christians' scripture" was actually not Christian -- that this is still the case in 2 Timothy is obvious from the fact that the "god-breathed and beneficial scripture" in 3:16 is none other than the "sacred writings" which Timothy knows "from childhood", and are (only) helpful to his Christian ministry "through the faith which is in Christ Jesus" (v. 15).

    It follows that the early Christian relationship to Jewish "scripture" was never one of blind submission to "authority," but rather an active wrestling with scripture to make it fit the Christian agenda(s). Early Christianity was glad to find anything in any scripture (whence the embracing statement) which could legitimate or develop its faith. As a result, it was content with a limited list of "prooftexts," whatever their origin (Enoch would do just as Genesis) and their original context. It didn't feel the need to make sense of everything in a closed canon. Only when it became dominant and the whole "Bible" was considered as "Christian" did the Christians feel responsible for explaining everything in the Bible from a Christian perspective. Only in this later context does the question of "infallibility of scripture" make sense.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Put on your thinking caps, people!

    Come on!

    Jeeze!

    Ask yourself what the intended PURPOSE of sacred scripture is SUPPOSED TO BE. If God were the author:

    To communicate a clear and understandable messege.

    If it isn't, then the only purpose would be to confuse, mislead and distort.

    If, then, God is trying to communicate to mankind: WHY IS THE BIBLE SO CONVOLUTED?

    A voice from the heavens would be more effective.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos...Yes, the reference to sacred writings known "since childhood" would in principle rule out the NT books as being in view. And your characterization of the author's attitude towards Scripture is certainly reflected in, say, Jude 's parenetic linking together of moral examples from the Torah, 1 Enoch, Assumption of Moses...whatever supported the argument would do. Similarly, the lost apocryphal Scripture quoted in 1 Clement, along with Judith, Joshua, Job, a story about the Phoenix, etc. Or how Hermas has no qualms using Eldad and Modad to provide a suitable metaphor.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    A fool needs his bag of tricks, and I had a beautifully embroidered and beaded bag of them past down to me be the original bag-o-trick makers. My bag was the star around which my life orbited. It gave me reason and meaning and purpose. It made me feel good and gave me hope. Then one day, the dog ate it.

    Oh, what a tragedy. For a while all I knew was my sorrow and pain of loss. Then I began to notice something; all around and within was a vibrancy of reality and life that had been missed. It seems that all this time the price I was paying for my cherished bag of tricks was my ears and eyes and senses. Now I have no little bag in-which to place my soul; and instead I have life and being which goes on forever.

    I have no specific place to place myself; and so -- I am free.

    j

  • poppers
    poppers
    I have no specific place to place myself; and so -- I am free.

    I'll drink to that. Will you join me?

  • OneLord
    OneLord

    We can only assume that the Bible is as God wants us to have it. We can not proof it anymore than we can proof that nothing in the Bible is the Word of God. That must be such a wonderful frustrating thing to both all the bible fundamentalists and all the Jesus haters out there. Some may say that God told him or her that all in the Bible is true, but that's not courtevidence. But actually what I find most problematic is when people pick and choose what to believe in the Bible based on ideas about what God would say and do. Then it's 100% certain that such a person's holy book becomes the word of men.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Welcome OneLord

    We can only assume that the Bible is as God wants us to have it.

    Then he wanted all the Bible canons and versions in the world history, including the NWT, to be exactly what they are. And the Qur'an. And the Book of Mormon. And every single piece of writing since Sumer. "All scripture" indeed. What was lost he wanted lost, what was kept he wanted kept, what was discovered he wanted discovered, what was changed he wanted changed.

    I'm not being sarcastic. Actually that's what pure monotheism, including absolute providence, would imply. But it is not what "Bible believers" usually believe.

    what I find most problematic is when people pick and choose what to believe in the Bible based on ideas about what God would say and do. Then it's 100% certain ;that ;such a ;person's holy book becomes the word of men.

    Sure, but is it not what happens always?

    In my experience, the most inclined to twist the interpretation of the Bible (their Bible) are those who do not allow themselves, consciously, to "pick and choose". When you are unable to say "I disagree with this text" you have to make it look acceptable in your own eyes, no matter what it actually says. Fundamentalist exegesis offers tons of examples, from harmonisation to anachronism via political correctness. The Bible can't be wrong, but then we'll have it say what we want to hear.

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