Who are the Great Crowd and Other Sheep. Long article for proof reading

jwfacts

I have just posted the following article at http://jwfacts.com/index_files/greatcrowd.htm about the Great Crowd and the Other Sheep. I would appreciate any comments in regards to the accuracy of statements and also checking grammar. Thanks I have reposted it again further down because this insert is too annoying with the scrolling.

Leolaia

Revelation 19:1 specifically states that John sees a “Great Crowd in heaven”.

Since this is an audition rather than a vision, it would be more accurate to say that he "heard" a Great Crowd in heaven.

jwfacts

Oh my Leo what is with the new face.

Good point, audition sounds better.

Leolaia

Oh my Leo what is with the new face.

jwfacts...Hehehe, it's the mugshot of our favorite Watchtower prez as he went into the slammer....(courtesy of Nathan Natas)

johnny cip

jw facts' i love your posts . but when i find a site or page ,that don't fit on the screen. and i have to schroll back and forth. i lose interest fast. maybe some one can tell me how to make , sites or posts that don't fit on the screen smaller or compact. ty john

jwfacts

Hi Johnny, this should be easier to read.

After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd , which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. -Revelation 7:9

“And I have other sheep , which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd - John 10:16

One of the core doctrines of the Watchtower is that Jehovah's Witnesses form a “Great Crowd of Other Sheep” that resides forever on earth. These are a separate group to the “Little Flock of 144,000”. The Watchtower magazine has contained Great Crowd and Other Sheep in the same sentence over 2,500 times over the last fifty years. This understanding results from an eisegesis approach as the context of Revelation and the gospels contain no such arbitrary links. It is only the frequency with which the Watchtower combines these terms that makes it difficult for Jehovah's Witnesses to read these texts on their own terms.

No scripture states that either the Great Crowd or Other Sheep are on earth. Christians understand the Great Crowd have a heavenly hope, as did Pastor Russell, and even Rutherford for many years.

What Pastor Russell Said p.297

" Does the Great Company receive life direct from God on the spirit plane? Answer -- Yes, they receive life direct in that they have been begotten of the Holy Spirit, and when they are begotten they are just the same way as the little flock, because we are called in the one hope of our calling. They do not make their calling and election sure, but not being worthy of second death, they therefore receive life on the spirit plane."

Watchtower 1927 15 January pp.19–20 “The Great Multitude,”

“… all the facts and the scriptures bearing upon the matter under consideration show that those who form the great multitude constitute a spirit class, born on the spirit plane .”

Vindication Volume 3 (1932) p.204

“… must be spirit creatures.”

An examination of the passage referring to the Great Crowd in Revelation 7:9 show that they are in heaven. Revelation 19:1 specifically states that John sees a “Great Crowd in heaven”.

Revelation 7:9-17

9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd , which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb , dressed in white robes ; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice , saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. … 13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation , and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple ; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

Each term that identifies the Great Crowd in Revelation 7:9-17 is elsewhere applied by the Watchtower to the Anointed ones in heaven. This places the Great Crowd in heaven. Following are descriptions of the Great Crowd, followed by a scripture using the same term to describe the Anointed heavenly class.

“great crowd”

Revelation 19:1 - After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven …” It is interesting to note that the New World Translation leaves reference to Rev. 19:1 out of it’s Bible Words Indexed section under the heading Great Crowd.

“out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues”

Revelation 5:9 - And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth .”

“standing before ( enopion ) the throne”

Revelation 7:11 - And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before ( enopion ) the throne and worshiped God.

the 144 000 in Rev 14:3 are standing before the throne.

“before ( enopion ) the Lamb”

Revelation 5:8 - And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before ( enopion ) the Lamb , having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones.

“dressed in white robes”

Revelation 6:11- And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.

“crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.””

Revelation 19:1 - After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God (w81 1/15 p. 16 “ The singing of those heavenly voices ”)

“come out of the great tribulation”

Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:24-27 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation , the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send forth the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

“washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 22:14 - Happy are those who wash their robes , that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates.

“rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple”

Revelation 11:1-2 - And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations,

“One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them”

2 Corinthians 6:16 - For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.

Revelation 7:9 does not say that the Great Crowd are on earth and they are described by terms used to identify those resurrected to heaven. Revelation 19:1 specifically states that there is a “Great Crowd in heaven”.

Watchtower Cover Up

A strong indication that the Great Crowd are in heaven is that Revelation 7:15 states that the Great Crowd are “ in his temple ”. The Greek word used is NAOS, which refers to the inner temple or temple sanctuary, rather than HIERON which is the outer courtyard of the temple. The Great Crowd are not on earth, they are in NAOS, the centre of the temple, the temple sanctuary; that is, they are in heaven itself with the 144,000.

The Watchtower Society understands this distinction between NAOS and HIERON. In the Watchtower 1960 August 15 p.493 it explained;

“The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center . In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron .”

For this reason in Revelation the New World Translation usually renders NAOS as temple sanctuary such as at Revelation 11:2:

“But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations…” (see also Rev. 11:2,19; 14:15; 15:5-8; 16:1,17)

However in Revelation 7:15 the New World Translation just uses the term temple when translating NAOS.

For many years the Watchtower attempted to show that the temple sanctuary (NAOS) can at times mean the outer courtyard of the temple, where the Great Crowd must be standing. It turns out that this argument was both inadequate and deceitful.

In 1980 the Watchtower attempted to prove the Great Crowd are on earth by making the claim that the Greek word na·os' can mean the other courtyard. It used 4 proof texts.

1. It was from the courts of the outer temple ( na·os' ) that Jesus drove the money changers

2. It was the entire temple ( na·os' ) that was destroyed as a judgment from God

3. It was the entire temple ( na·os' ) that had been 46 years in the building john 2:19

4. It was in the outer temple ( na·os' ) that Judas threw back the 30 pieces of silver mat 27:5

Watchtower 1980 August 15 pp.14-16 The “Great Crowd” Renders Sacred Service Where?

“ Revelation 7:15 ( ED ) says that “they . . . publicly serve him day and night in his temple [ na·os´ in the Greek original text].” Well, now, does this mean that those making up this “great crowd” finally go to heaven where the God is to whom they ascribe their “salvation”?

… The question revolves around that original Greek word that is variously translated as “tent,” “temple” and “sanctuary.” (1.) For example, in the Bible account of where Jesus Christ drove the money changers and merchantmen out of Herod’s temple, the original Greek word used is na·os´ . There we read: “Jesus answered, (2.) ‘Destroy this sanctuary [ na·os´ ], and in three days I will raise it up’. The Jews replied, (3.) ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this sanctuary [ na·os´ ]: are you going to raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking of the sanctuary [na·os´] that was his body.” (John 2:19-21, The Jerusalem Bible ) By “sanctuary,” what did those Jews mean?

5 Certainly not the inner sanctuary that contained the vestibule, the Holy and the Most Holy compartments. They meant the temple structure as a whole, including its courtyards, in one of which the money changers and merchantmen were doing business. Herod’s temple as a whole was destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E. … Very plainly the temple, sanctuary, or na·os´ , does not mean just the inner sanctuary, but the entire temple area with all its structures.

… Matthew 27:5 reports: (4.) “Judas threw the money into the sanctuary [ na·os´ ] and left them; then he went off and hanged himself.”

The most obvious deception in this article is the statement that NOAS is used when describing where Jesus drove the money changers from. John 2:14-15 (see also Matt. 21:12 and Mark 11:15 in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation ) say it was from the HIERON that the money changers were driven.

“And he found in the temple (HIERON) those selling cattle and sheep and doves and the money brokers in their seats. 15 So, after making a whip of ropes, he drove all those with the sheep and cattle out of the temple ( HIERON) , and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables”

The argument is equally unreliable when discussing John 2:19

In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple (NAOS), and in three days I will raise it up.”

Jesus refers to his body as the temple sanctuary NAOS, but when the bible describes the destruction of the temple as a whole it uses the word HEIRON. (See Matt. 24:1,2, Mark 13:1-3 and Luke 21:5,6 in the Kingdom Interlinear .)

In the next two examples it is only conjecture that use of the word NAOS refers to the entire temple. There is no evidence to show the Pharisees were referring to the entire temple at John 2:20 or that Judas threw the coins into the outer sanctuary. ( Matthew 27:5 )

Perceptive readers picked up on these false statements and by 2 002 the Watchtower Society was forced to change this reasoning and admit that the great crowd are not in the Courtyard of the Gentiles but in the temple sanctuary. Nevertheless they continue to state that the Great Crowd is on earth, though now there is little within the scripture to support this concept.

Watchtower 2002 May 1 pp.30-31

“When John saw the “great crowd” rendering sacred service in Jehovah’s temple, in which part of the temple were they doing this?—Revelation 7:9-15.

“It is reasonable to say that the great crowd worships Jehovah in one of the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple, specifically the one that corresponds with the outer courtyard of Solomon’s temple.

In times past, it has been said that the great crowd is in a spiritual equivalent, or an antitype, of the Court of the Gentiles that existed in Jesus’ day. However, further research has revealed at least five reasons why that is not so….”

Fifth, the Greek word ( hi·e·ron’ ) translated “temple” that is used with reference to the Court of the Gentiles “refers to the entire complex, rather than specifically to the Temple building itself,” says A Handbook on the Gospel of Matthew, by Barclay M. Newman and Philip C. Stine. In contrast, the Greek word ( na·os’ ) translated “temple” in John’s vision of the great crowd is more specific. In the context of the Jerusalem temple, it usually refers to the Holy of Holies, the temple building, or the temple precincts. It is sometimes rendered “sanctuary.”—Matthew 27:5, 51; Luke 1:9, 21; John 2:20.

Members of the great crowd exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. They are spiritually clean, having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Hence, they are declared righteous with a view to becoming friends of God and of surviving the great tribulation. (James 2:23, 25) In many ways, they are like proselytes in Israel who submitted to the Law covenant and worshiped along with the Israelites.

Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard, where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times! Of course, those proselytes did not serve in the inner courtyard , where the priests performed their duties. And members of the great crowd are not in the inner courtyard of Jehovah’s great spiritual temple, which courtyard represents the condition of perfect, righteous human sonship of the members of Jehovah’s “holy priesthood” while they are on earth. (1 Peter 2:5) But as the heavenly elder said to John, the great crowd really is in the temple, not outside the temple area in a kind of spiritual Court of the Gentiles. What a privilege that is! And how it highlights the need for each one to maintain spiritual and moral purity at all times!”

This new stand admits that the Great Crowd is in NAOS, the temple sanctuary, but gives no explanation as to how this can imply it is on earth.

Other Sheep

The Watchtower also used the mention of Other Sheep to prove an earthly class. This is not applicable either. The earth is never mentioned in reference to these sheep, nor is there any specific reference to an earthly resurrection in the bible. The main thrust of the New Testament is that Jesus new covenant applied to both Jews and Gentiles. The Other Sheep Jesus referred to indicated that Jesus was creating a single sheep fold that was going to include both Jews and Gentiles.

Reference to a Little Flock and to Other Sheep by Jesus was not applying to two different destinations but to two different sources . They are "not from (Greek ek, indicating origin) this fold" implies they are from different origins .

This is understood when considering the context and how Jesus disciples would have understood this statement. John 10:16 says;

“And I have other sheep , which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock , one shepherd”

This is part of an answer Jesus was giving to a question asked by the Pharisees at John 9:40.

“And Jesus said: “For [this] judgment I came into this world: that those not seeing might see and those seeing might become blind.” 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: “We are not blind also, are we?”

In answer to this question Jesus goes on to describe his role as shepherd and who his sheep would be. How would the Pharisees have understood Jesus having “other sheep, which are not of this fold"?

A fold is a yard and at that time Jesus was only bringing Jews into his yard. He then said other sheep would also be brought into that one flock, or single yard. He was not saying he would create separate classes, just the opposite, that he was going to unify two classes into one. Jesus new covenant would unify both Jews and Gentiles as “one flock [under] one shepherd”.

At Ephesians 2:11-18 Paul described in detail that Gentiles would become united with Jews as one body.

“Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” YOU were called by that which is called “circumcision” made in the flesh with hands— 12 that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit.

All Christians are one body and have only one hope, a heavenly one. Jesus was referring to the time when Gentiles too could join as part of this one flock.

Ephesians 4:4

“ One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; “

1 Corinthians 12:13

“ For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks , whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.”

John 11:51-52

“This, though, he did not say of his own originality; but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was destined to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that the children of God who are scattered about he might also gather together in one.”

Romans 2:10-11

“but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek . 11 For there is no partiality with God.”

Matthew 15:22-24

“And, look! a Phoe·ni´cian woman from those regions came out and cried aloud…. So his disciples came up and began to request him: “Send her away; because she keeps crying out after us.” 24 In answer he said: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Under the heading Christianity the New Catholic Encylopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm as at June 23rd 2006) states;

“From the plainly expressed purpose of Christ Himself, who, while proclaiming that His personal mission concerned only the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" (Matthew 15:24), announced the future extension of His Kingdom: "Other sheep I have who are not of this fold" (John 10:16); "Many from the east and the west shall come and shall recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 8:11); "And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached throughout the whole world in testimony to all nations" (Matthew 28:19).

History and affect

Russell had said that the 144,000 were sealed in 1881 (The Time Is At Hand (1889) 1915 ed. p.235) In introducing his Great Crowd doctrine Rutherford recycled this concept, now saying the total number of the 144,000 was sealed in 1935 to coincide with Rutherford’s new Great Crowd revelation. No biblical basis is used to support when this sealing occurred.

Rutherford did not introduce the new teaching of an earthly Great Crowd because the number of Jehovah’s Witnesses was approaching 144,000. With Russell’s understanding any number of Jehovah’s Witnesses was able to go to heaven as part of the heavenly Great Crowd. Rutherford’s teaching that ‘millions now living will never die’ referred to ‘worldly people’ surviving into the paradise earth due to start with the resurrection in 1925.

In the 1930’s the Great Crowd started to be described as being on earth.

Riches (1936) pp.324, 325 (Rutherford)

“Thus the great multitude is definitely identified, not as a spirit-begotten class whose hopes are for a place in heaven, but a class trusting in the Lord, and who hope for everlasting life on earth..."

It appears that moving the Great Crowd to earth was to support Rutherford’s concept of narrow salvation. To make survival at Armageddon contingent on being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses was the most effective way to rapidly grow Watchtower followers. With the anointed Jehovah’s Witnesses going to heaven and a Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses surviving onto earth, the only option for the rest of the world was eternal destruction. This concept worked; between 1935 and 1975 the Watchtower Society was one of the fastest growing religions on earth.

This concept created a second rate class of people. The Great Crowd was described as Watchtower followers that “were taking the easy road”.

Jehovah’s Witnesses - Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom pp.160, 161

“They could see, however, that not all who professed to have made a “consecration” (or, ‘to have given themselves fully to the Lord,’ as they understood it to mean) thereafter continued to pursue a life of willing self-sacrifice, making the Lord’s service their first concern in life. … They believed that if these who were said to be of the great multitude were faithful at that time, they would be resurrected to heavenly life—not to rule as kings but to take a position before the throne.… Many seemingly consecrated Christians were taking the easy road , failing to manifest true zeal for the Lord’s cause and shunning self-sacrifice.“

The Great Crowd continue to be of a separate caste. They:

* Are not part of the New Covenant w79 11/15 p.24

* Do not have Jesus as their mediator w79 11/15 pp.22-24

* Most of the New Testament does not apply to them w74 6/15 p.376

* Do not inherit the earth it-1 p.1201 , w 58 3/1 p.139

* Are not Born again w96 7/1 p. 21

* They are not part of the congregation of God it-1 p. 498

* The spirit does not pray for them w92 9/15 p. 16

To say that the New Testament was written principally for the 144,000 and many key Christian concepts only apply to this small number of people is untenable. There have been 1902 years between 33 A.D. and 1935. This Watchtower concept means that globally there was an average of only 76 “true” Christians per year (144,000 divided by 1902). The figure is even lower if you consider that there were an estimated minimum 50,000 Anointed Christians in the first century and i n 1935 C.E. there were 52,465 Jehovah's Witness memorial partakers ( jv p.717). That means that over 1850 years there were only 40,000 “true” Christians, an average of only 21 new ones per year earth wide.

The doctrine of a secondary class is inaccurate and alienates the majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses from Jesus. It removes the average Jehovah’s Witness from much of the wonder of being a Christian, a relationship with Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Star Moore

Hello,

Just wanted to say, well, it's too long for me to read right now... but I do think that the great crowd and the other sheep are different, now that I'm out.

I think the great crowd..are the good people who will survive the great trib..but the 144,000 are the very devoted brothers of Christ.

I think the other sheep were the gentiles..

SirNose586

I'm glad I found that site. I forget where I saw it, but there was a picture in an older magazine that had the 144k in a pen and the other sheep outside. I thought, "What about the one flock? Those sheep on the outside are right next to the bad guys!" And they had pictures of the hireling, the thief, etc. dressed in dark clothes and looking angry.

johnny cip

jwfacts: thanks... for fixing it into a screen size. i haven't read it all yet . but i'm sure i've beaten . many jw's over the head with some of the same facts. your site is great also. ty john

Narkissos

Hi jwfacts, thanks for your pm. Good article. Here are a few remarks from a quick reading: Imo the WT had a fairly good point that naos can imply more (even if only by metonymy) than the inner temple (although this has little bearing, if any, on the interpretation of Revelation). In John 2, there is an obvious continuity between the "temple cleansing" and the saying about Jesus destroying and rebuilding the naos (which exists also as a "false witness'" statement in the Synoptics). The typical Johannine "misunderstanding" (not by the Pharisees, btw) clearly alludes to the works initiated by Herod (v. 20, "This naos has been under construction for forty-six years"), which definitely affected the whole complex, not only the inner sanctuary. And I think the Judas argument was not bad either. I have not read the entire 2002 article (note that you pasted part of it twice), but from the above excerpt it doesn't question the previous interpretation of naos as larger than the inner sanctuary: it only changes courtyards, choosing the Biblical "outer courtyard" rather than the Herodian "courtyard of Gentiles".

The Other Sheep Jesus referred to indicated that Jesus was creating a single sheep fold that was going to include both Jews and Gentiles.

Jesus was only bringing Jews into his yard. He then said other sheep would also be brought into that one flock, or single yard.

I don't read that in John 10:16. The only mentioned "fold" is where part of the sheep come from, as you duly point out, but there is no mention of Jesus creating another fold/yard for all. They are to become "one flock, one shepherd," not "one fold/yard". (I have not checked the spelling, but I think you wrote NOAS instead of NAOS once.) Hope this helps.

Who are the Great Crowd and Other Sheep. Long article for proof reading

Other Sheep

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