Thanks Narkissos, you have given a few points for me to tweak.
I was thinking that the SOS part of your name is very applicable. But then realising that your name is Narcissus I would love to know what it means to you.
Who are the Great Crowd and Other Sheep. Long article for proof reading
by jwfacts 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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TheListener
Regarding John 10:16 which reads (NIV) "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
Would it be fair to say that since Jesus was sent to gather what had been scattered (israelites) that this scripture is merely stating that he is going to add gentiles into the privileged position that the israelites had?
So the "other sheep I have" would be non-israelites, or gentiles. The "one fold" would then be a combo pack of israelites that had been gathered and gentiles that 'heard my voice'?
It seems fairly clear to me, which isn't saying much I know, that the 'other sheep' would have the same eventuality as those they were folded in with. As earlier in John 10 he says he will surrender his life in behalf of 'his sheep'. All sheep benefit.
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TheListener
Oh and I forgot JWFacts, I liked your write up. The other sheep and anointed thing still hangs over my head.
I seem to be having trouble with the God's purpose thing. Did he create Adam & Eve to live forever on a paradise earth? If so, did he ever intend for them to go to heaven? Does he want us to live forever on paradise earth? AAAHHHHH!!!!!
OK I'm better now. twitch twitch
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TheListener
Oh and I forgot JWFacts, I liked your write up. The other sheep and anointed thing still hangs over my head.
I seem to be having trouble with the God's purpose thing. Did he create Adam & Eve to live forever on a paradise earth? If so, did he ever intend for them to go to heaven? Does he want us to live forever on paradise earth? AAAHHHHH!!!!!
OK I'm better now. twitch twitch
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jwfacts
Hi The Listener,
You summarised the Other Sheep correctly, the Gentiles and Jews would become one flock. I guess it also aligns with the Keys of the Kingdom, Jews first, then Samaritans and then the Gentiles.
I have also done an article on Paradise that I will post soon. But it has been really difficult getting my head around. Paradise references in the bible refers to heaven. Future resurrection references refer to heaven. Jews believe paradise is in heaven. Descriptions of the wolf and lamb were fulfilled with the Jews being released from Babylon, and do not prove that this earth lasts forever.
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jwfacts
Hi The Listener,
You summarised the Other Sheep correctly, the Gentiles and Jews would become one flock. I guess it also aligns with the Keys of the Kingdom, Jews first, then Samaritans and then the Gentiles.
I have also done an article on Paradise that I will post soon. But it has been really difficult getting my head around. Paradise references in the bible refers to heaven. Future resurrection references refer to heaven. Jews believe paradise is in heaven. Descriptions of the wolf and lamb were fulfilled with the Jews being released from Babylon, and do not prove that this earth lasts forever.
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Justitia Themis
Regarding the second sentence in the first paragraph, perhaps this rewording for clairity: "These are a group separate from the "Little......"
Also, regarding the heading "History and affect," perhaps you mean "effect?" And, I believe both words should be capatalized... History and Effect.
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Leolaia
But it has been really difficult getting my head around. Paradise references in the bible refers to heaven. Future resurrection references refer to heaven. Jews believe paradise is in heaven.
I'm afraid it's more complex than that. Generally Paradise was viewed as heavenly tho not always (cf. 1 Enoch 32 = 4Q206, which places Paradise at the eastern edge of the world), or the earthly paradise was regarded as a duplicate of the heavenly one (cf. Apocalypse of Moses 28:4, 13:1-4, 40:6). Some sources describe the destruction of Paradise during Noah's Flood (3 Baruch 4:10), while others claim that it was preserved with God in heaven (2 Baruch 4:6, 51:7-11). Specifically, Paradise was located in third heaven (cf. Apocalypse of Moses 37:5; 2 Corinthians 12:2-3; 2 Enoch 8:1-9:1), and during the present world serves as the abode of the righteous when they die (cf. Apocalypse of Moses 37:5; Luke 23:43; Testament of Abraham 20:14; Assumption of Moses; Apocalpse of Sedrach 16:6; Irenaeus, AH 5.5.1), tho not all sources share this view. In the future world, it will be the destination of the righteous after eschatological judgment (Testament of Dan 5:12, Testament of Levi 18:10, 4 Ezra 7:36-43, Revelation 2:7; Testament of Abraham 11:1-10), and while some sources suggest that it would remain in heaven (Testament of Abraham), others suggest that it would be "disclosed" on the earth with Gehenna when the general resurrection occurs (4 Ezra 7:36-38). A similar view of "restoration of original Paradise" is latent in the Testament of Levi. In the case of 4 Ezra, the appearance of Paradise occurs after the temporary messianic kingdom and the destruction and recreation of the earth (7:26-32). A similar scenario is found in Revelation, which also posits a future temporary messianic kingdom lasting a millenium, followed by the removal of the present heavens and earth and replacement by a new heavens and earth (ch. 20-21). In particular, Paradise (= New Jerusalem) is seen as descending from heaven to the new earth in Revelation 22:21-23 (cf. the establishment of New Jerusalem on earth in 4 Ezra 10:25-28). This represents a return to the original Edenic situation of God dwelling with man on the earth, complete with trees of life and the water of life.
Revelation, in fact, presents a chiliast scenario quite typical of Asia Minor of the second century (note that Revelation was addressed to Asia Minor churches and was likely written by John of Ephesus), particularly the apocalypticism of Phrygia. Gaius of Rome claimed that Cerinthus of Ephesus -- John's nemesis -- taught that "after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on the earth and that in Jerusalem the body will again serve as the instrument of desires and pleasures" (Eusebius, HE 3.28.2), and Dionysius of Alexandria similarly noted that Cerinthus taught that "the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one" (Ibid., 3.28.4-5). Papias of Hierapolis also described the material blessings of the future Paradise (cited in Irenaeus, AH 5.33.3-4 and Eusebius HE, 3.39.1) in a logion derived from the Jewish apocalypse of 2 Baruch 29:5-6, and Irenaeus (of Asian extraction) similarly believed in an earthly kingdom brought by Christ when he comes to the earth in judgment (AH 5.32-35). These chialist notions depend in part in the Jewish messianic expectation of a coming messiah who would restore Jerusalem (compare Hippolytus of Rome, Refutatio 9.30). In the second half of the second century AD, Montanus claimed that New Jerusalem would descend from heaven and become established in Pepouza in Phrygia (Epiphanius, Haereses 48.14.1, 49.1). Such a view of a literal establishment of Paradise on earth, however, was found only in some streams of Judaism and early Christianity. For example, the Pauline references to heaven as being the believer's future home has no concept of these chiliast views.
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Narkissos
Off-topic, but jwfacts asked...
I was thinking that the SOS part of your name is very applicable. But then realising that your name is Narcissus I would love to know what it means to you.
The SOS part is definitely coincidental.
When I registered on JWD I first chose another Greek nickname which I happened to use on a French-speaking forum, but I messed up with the password so I had to pick another without much thinking. This one came to mind from Hermann Hesse's novel Narziss und Goldmund, a book I had enjoyed a lot shortly before I left JWs, and from the underlying Greek myth, which is very beautiful. Actually I'm finding Hesse's allusion to Narcissus in the name of his theologian character increasingly insightful.
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jwfacts
Thanks Justitia, will make the changes.
Nark, No wonder you left the WTS, you read too much rather than restricting yourself to a diet of Watchtower propoganda.
Leo, thanks for the info on Paradise. You make far too much work for me, now I have to go back and add to some of what I wrote on Jewish beliefs ;). Do you know any good sites I can search for the quoted references?