I have also heard it called one "who" consisting of three "whats".
Who = God
What = Persons
Should you believe in the Trinity?
by 1ofhissheep 61 Replies latest watchtower bible
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1ofhissheep
Well, that is exactly what an "analogy" is. It doesn't have to be living, it's just an example. Besides, God used nature, in many ways. to show us bits and peices of who He really is. And there are biblical refernces to prove that God is more that just the father.
Gen 31: 11 Then the angel of the [true] God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob!’ to which I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he continued, ‘Raise your eyes, please, and see all the he-goats springing upon the flock are striped, speckled and spotty, for I have seen all that La´ban is doing to you. 13 I am the [true] God of Beth´el, where you anointed a pillar and where you vowed a vow to me. Now get up, go out of this land and return to the land of your birth.’”
Ex. 13: 21 And Jehovah was going ahead of them in the daytime in a pillar of cloud to lead them by the way, and in the nighttime in a pillar of fire to give them light to go in the daytime and nighttime. 22 The pillar of cloud would not move away from before the people in the daytime nor the pillar of fire in the nighttime....14: 19 Then the angel of the [true] God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them.
Judges 2: 1 Then Jehovah’s angel went up from Gil´gal to Bo´chim and said: “I proceeded to bring YOU up out of Egypt and to bring YOU into the land about which I swore to YOUR forefathers. Furthermore, I said, ‘Never shall I break my covenant with YOU .'
Judges 13: 16 But Jehovah’s angel said to Ma·no´ah: “If you detain me, I shall not feed myself on your bread; but if you will render up a burnt offering to Jehovah, you may offer it up.” For Ma·no´ah did not know that he was Jehovah’s angel. 17 Then Ma·no´ah said to Jehovah’s angel: “What is your name, that when your word comes true we shall certainly do you honor?” 18 However, Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Just why should you ask about my name, when it is a wonderful one?”
Judges 13: 19 And Ma·no´ah proceeded to take the kid of the goats and the grain offering and to offer it upon the rock to Jehovah. And He was doing something in a wonderful way while Ma·no´ah and his wife were looking on. 20 So it came about that, as the flame ascended from off the altar heavenward, then Jehovah’s angel ascended in the flame of the altar while Ma·no´ah and his wife were looking on. At once they fell upon their faces to the earth. 21 And Jehovah’s angel did not repeat appearing to Ma·no´ah and his wife anymore. Then it was that Ma·no´ah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel. 22 Consequently Ma·no´ah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” 23 But his wife said to him: “If Jehovah had been delighted only to put us to death, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hand, and he would not have shown us all these things, and he would not as now have let us hear anything like this.”
These are just a few of many. There is blatant proof that God manifests Himself in more than one way.
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Qcmbr
What about the following idea?
God is a title as is Jehovah.
Jesus is a God
The Holy Spirit is a God
God the Father is a God
The Gods created the heavens and the earth (by golly gosh - Genesis was right all along)
Jehovah can say 'I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands' (i.e Jesus is Jehovah)
God the Father can also speak and act as Jehovah and the OT confusion is removed.
The whole issue untangles when you check the context to see who is speaking rather than trying to fix a title upon one person.
No need to make the physical, resurrected Jesus Christ some bizarre admixture of His Father and the Holy Spirit. The scriptures all square up - Jesus can admonish his disciples to be 'one' as He is with God (i.e. not some absorption of apostles into a cosmic 'god' but a wholeness and unity of purpose - similar to the 'one flesh' idea of marriage that does not require a shemale hybrid :)
Jesus can stand on the right hand of His Father without some tortured explanation involving three states of water etc.. and the Holy Spirit can happily testify of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ can honestly say I'm not doing my will but my Father's and we can all kick back as the penny drops when Jesus said 'ye are gods.'
Just an idea. -
renando_stimpy
The Gods created the heavens and the earth (by golly gosh - Genesis was right all along)
I've been in trouble with this line before, as soon as you say "elohim" is plural of 'eloah' JW's usually scream polytheism...the best way to see the plural use is emphasis of majesty, majesty multiplied ... but I think it does also explain something about the nature of God... it's an interesting thought... I like to think God can introduce two ideas with one phrase, He's sure capable...
You can generally tell when you've taken something out of context when the rest of the book testifies your mistake... Isa 43:10, Isa 44:6, 1 Timothy 2:5 among others.. There is only 1 God...
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bebu
Q, that ignores the foundation of monotheism that Judaism teaches without any caveat or reservation: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, The Lord is One." Dt. 6:4, and this verse is repeated by Christ in Mark 12:29. You should be aware that "One" in the verse above reflects a plural unity. By golly gosh.
I think Jesus' comment "ye are gods" is one of the most profound statements in the whole NT. But he certainly isn't advocating the type of polytheism you believe in as a Mormon.
bebu
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Terry
Let us get a grip!
The Hebrew language is primitive.
It served a primitive people.
Compare it to the Greek language and you can see why the Roman Empire was suffused with it.
Are we trying to say the Hebrew language as reflected in scripture was used with scientific accuracy?
Those redactors and revisionists who gave us the version of the bible with which we are familiar did the best they could with what they had--but, don't fool yourself that there is actual sensible accuracy at work.
By the time it was a couple of hundred years before Jesus even walked the Earth the Jews, for the most part, were reading their own holy writings--not in Hebrew--but, in GREEK!
There is a rather naive and pristine innocence about people who parse the language of the bible.
There is no data there!
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Terry
I would also like to point out the analogy of a rainbow:
When you look at a beam of pure light (sunshine), all you see is that light. What you cannot see is the fact that it is actually a rainbow. If you take a crystal to it, those parts separate and the rainbow appears. But you do not call it "rainbows", for it is only one rainbow. Is any one part less than the others? No, they are merely different. Were those parts just made at the point that the crystal touches the light? No. The parts were always there, one part did not make the other. They were just within the light until they were revealed
Oh dear!
We may as well think of ourselves as a multiplicity of atomic assemblages and extract some mathematical number to attach to our "being"!
This is silly!
The concept of a Trinity is a primitive pagan idea that became common parlance. When it came time to sell Jesus he had to fit the mold. End of story.
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Terry
God is not triplex (1 + 1 + 1) — He is triune (1 x 1 x 1)
Just a thought ..
Funny how everybody is suddenly a God scientist with formulae and such!
There can be no data when it comes to the concept of a transcendant being who is not ostensible.
The human mind can concoct patterns which correspond to absolutely anything. That is the nature of the human brain; it is pattern seeking.
But, God is not a sensible entity we can tough or quantify. It is irrational silliness to apply tactile applications to something ethereal and deliberately beyond description.
We fool ourselves on purpose. It gives us comfort to think of even our fantasies as quantifiable.
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Stealth453
Welcome to the board.
Since I left the wt, I have become a firm believer in the trinity.
ME MYSELF and I
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jwfacts
The Church fathers did not believe what Jehovah's Witnesses do about the Nature of God. From the start they believed Jesus was to be worshipped, and by 180AD the phrase Trinity was coined.
Following is a long word document by Michael Partyka that quotes from each of the Church Fathers in the Watchtower Trinity Brochure and shows that the Watchtower's claims are incorrect about their beliefs.
http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/antenicene.doc