I find it very interesting that the Bible and mythology are very close, when speaking about god. Also the statement made by god in the bible to worship no other GOD but him, in effect saying that there are others GODS. Has anyone actually looked into the occult, for lack of a better word, and actually made contact with an entity? I figure if god is not going to answer my prayers why not see who's out there, if anyone. Seems my attempts lately have not yielded anything, mayking me wonder all the more...
Contacting the "other side"
by sinis 35 Replies latest jw friends
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FMZ
Sinis...
There are so many belief systems out there, some worship personal deities, some worship impersonal deities, some worship many deities, and of course, some worship nothing but themselves.
My personal conclusion on the matter is that although God is often described as being "personal" (i.e. with a persona) and having a name etc... this is just mankind's attempt to attribute human-like traits to the real God. Polytheism is a great example of this. Polytheistic religions worship and believe in many gods. They note that there are many different aspects to the world, and often attribute a different god to each facet of their lives. Let's take Egyptian beliefs as an example. The sun god made sure the sun came up (Ra), the god of wisdom (Thoth) blessed those who studied and meditated, the god of the dead (Osiris) made sure that people passed to the other side readily.
All of these are simply the separate facets of the real God. When we bring them all together, we see a much more vast, intricate, loving God.
I tend not to pray to a named, personal God any more... I simply pray to God. He know's who I'm talking to.
KJ
P.S. Just as I was about to hit Submit, I noticed I just subconsciously attributed a gender to something that is genderless. I guess some habits are hard to break.
P.P.S. There is a lot to be said for the phrase "God is love" ;)
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parakeet
***Has anyone actually looked into the occult, for lack of a better word, and actually made contact with an entity?***
Anyone who has ever prayed to God has attempted to make contact with an entity. No different from a seance, casting a circle, entering a trance -- all are attempts to contact and comprehend divinity. -
Terry
Here is a pretty good rule of thumb.
Always remember you are dealing with something a person is asserting to be real and true when you hear about an extraordinary event.
It is words.
Words don't prove anything except that we are weak in the knees when they are clever and magical and mysterious.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
People still see Elvis.
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Satanus
One of my first serious meditations was on the bible god. Yes, i did get something. Funnily enough, after a month or two of thinking about that experience, i realised that it wasn't the bible god 'out there' that came through. It was my long dead brother. It was so very reassuring, seeing him. The bible god has never come through for me. I conclude that he doesn't exist, or is sulking, or is just some low level entity. I have much better things to do now, than to be concerned about that 'god'. My occultic practices have led me right back to me, ie, get myself well, and fulfill my own personal purpose(s) as best i can.
S
Ps, as well, the collective unconscious, to use the jungian term, seems to me to be real. I am exploring the way it works.
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Synergy
I contact a diety each time I pray to God. He answers every single one of my prayers. His answer is either, Yes, No or Later but they all get answered. Have you ever thought that maybe you're praying for the wrong things and his answer is just no. OR Maybe he's shown you the answer and your eyes are closed to it? God is very personal and will be as personal as you want him to be to you. But he doesn't go where he's not invited. Invite him into your life, not just certain parts of it and see if he doesn't really show himself.
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ringo5
I contact a diety each time I pray to God. He answers every single one of my prayers. His answer is either, Yes, No or Later but they all get answered. Have you ever thought that maybe you're praying for the wrong things and his answer is just no. OR Maybe he's shown you the answer and your eyes are closed to it? God is very personal and will be as personal as you want him to be to you. But he doesn't go where he's not invited. Invite him into your life, not just certain parts of it and see if he doesn't really show himself.
I'm going to apologize in advance, synergy, because you sound like a nice lady with a good heart . But your feelings on prayer remind me of my time as a dub, as I would hear similar views expressed then. (And it's not just a JW thing)
I would hear things like, a pioneer was looking for a better car for service, because their last one had finally bit the dust. They would make it a matter of prayer, feeling of course it was in line with God's will, as they were involved in a preaching work. Whether or not they got one of course, is irrelevant, because no matter what the outcome was, they felt God answered their prayer.
a- they found a car in their budget so God blessed them ( God said yes )
b- they had to rely on others for transportation and for a while until something turned up ( God said later )
c- they couldn't find a car, so they changed their style of ministry to suit i.e. telephone or street witnessing ( God said no )
Again with either a, b, or c as an outcome, the recipient or non recipient would feel God answered their prayer and find evidence of that:
a- God blessed their efforts in the ministry
b- God saw fit for them to enjoy the association and buildup others in the ministry
c- God chose a different area of the ministry for them to pursue
Well you might say this is a silly example of of a pretty mundane and petty prayer. Nevertheless, many feel as you do, that God is actively involved in very personal details of their life.
Apparently this is of great comfort to them, as they feel close to the divine and they feel a certain divine protection .
However I could not help but think of people who were living on the very thin edge between life and death, just barely surviving from day to day in third world countries. Not to mention the thousands of people that die every day due to " acts of god” .
I guess you could say that if they were praying, they were praying for the wrong things.
I guess you could say that if they were praying, God said no .
I guess you could say that if they were praying, that perhaps God gave them the answer, but their mind was closed to it.
-but as you say, maybe they hadn’t prayed, maybe they hadn’t invited God in that day, and they paid the price.
If you had God’s power Synergy, could you possibly say no to those starving children and Africa for example?
Would you be tapping your fingers on your desk waiting for them to say the proper prayer?
Would you say, sorry I’m a little busy right now, try again later when I’m finished helping out all these people in first world countries deal with the stress of day to day life?
As you can see, believing that God is answering your prayers, begs the question, where are God’s priorities?
Perhaps he’s saving your life on a daily basis, perhaps every second of your day is a life and death struggle and you need constant divine intervention . ( I doubt that is the case )
For me, I can’t imagine a God like that, even though you could say parts of the Bible depict a god that very same way.
I much prefer to think that we’re all in this together, and we should stop looking for divine intervention, we should stop looking at the skies for answers, we should stop listening to the wind for clues.
Perhaps some personal responsibility and a humanistic approach to life would get us out of a lot of problems and hopefully help others along the way.
When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.
-Peter O’Toole -
Arthur
As far as spiritism is concerned, I stay the hell away from it. I am convinced that there are indeed demonic forces that do influence certain people and practices such as witchcraft, black magic, and other other practices. A member of my family dabbled into witchcraft many years ago, and there were many unpleasant consequences that resulted.
As far as God goes, I hold many of the same sentiments as Synergy expressed in her post. I could not have said it better than she did. I no longer pray for selfish wants or favors, but instead pray that my needs are met and guidance in doing God's will. Actually, my faith in God has increased tremendously since leaving the organization.
To Ringo5:
I can understand how you feel. Actually, you made some very good points. I remember a brother giving a talk at an assembly and relating an experience of how a brother decided not to take a lucrative job inside the World Trade Center because of his ministry. His job would have started just days before 9/11, and he would have died. Therefore, his life was saved. There was a thunderous applause in the auditorium. I rember hearing this talk and saying: "Yeah, that's wonderful! What about the several Witnesses who did die in the attack?" The yearbooks were filled with stories of how Witnesses lives were "miraculously" spared while they were in the ministry. Yet, they usually fail to mention the times when Witnesses died in accidents, natural disasters, or while in service were captured by muslim terrorists and beheaded.
But here is something to consider. This may sound very silly to you. It did to me, until I started doing a little more research. Try researching some of the teachings behind Karma, and specifically the concepts of "Karmic Inheritence". They may seem bizarre, but they do answer many unanswered questions regarding the time of people's death and the various "twists of fate". I am not prone to grab onto these concepts and just buy into them, but I have seriously considered them and asked myself: "What if?" "What if I really am accountable for all of my actions in an afterlife?" "What if I really am accountable, in that I how I live and treat others in my life will come back to me in the next life?" The truth is, I really don't know for sure. But what I do know, is that taking the small, simple actions of gaining a "God conscousness" in my life has definately been rewarding and made me happier.
I went through a period of great cynicism and asked myself why even bother with prayer and God consciousness. But a couple of spiritual teachers I knew told me to just do it and have an open mind. I have found that my level of joy and peace has increased remarkably since engaging in intense prayer, and striving to always do good toward others in everything I do. I have found that surrendering to God has actually freed me from most of the fears about current world condtions that are going on right now. They don't have any power over me any more.
I think a quote by Herbert Spencer is appropriate. He wrote:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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New Worldly Translation
Good points Ringo5.
I would go further and say that belief in personal god is an extremely self indulgent, myopic point of view and is often used as an emotional crutch for many of the aspects you pointed out. It's no different to a superstition and the blessing or blaming of irrelevancies for happenings in your life, just like belief and fear of satan and demons that we had as a dub.
Sinis, maybe you put the question slightly tongue in cheek but I would suggest looking at the paganistic roots of polytheism and how it morphed into the monotheism of recent times and how satan or the devil has become more an more an object of derision in opposition to an omnipotent god. It's quite striking how obvious the god or gods or demons in history have been a projection of the hopes, fears, wants, desires, failings of the people who worshipped them. The progression is clearly seen in the OT and other historical writings where the god or gods are much more flawed than the all powerful, all knowing gods we have today. They were prone to fits of anger, regret, petulance and could could be argued with when circumstances arose that were not beneficial to the worshippers. Contrary to belief and what is taught the Israelites were never a monotheistic society, not until king Josiah's time and only after other cultures had already set up a one God structure or at least had a bash at it like the Egyptians.
If prayer gives you the strength you need Sinis then that's fine but just remember that ultimately what you do in life is up to you and only you have the power to change it for the better. Casting round the ephemeral for someone of something to answer your prayers will only lead to disappointment.
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New Worldly Translation
I have found that surrendering to God has actually freed me from most of the fears about current world condtions that are going on right now. They don't have any power over me any more.
I think you summed it up right there Arthur. You have abrogated all personal responsibility and the responsibility of others for peace of mind. This might help you personally but it's a symptom of the procrastinating religious attitude through the centuries that said ' there's nothing we can do about it, God will sort it out'.